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Author Topic:   The meaning of the trinity
Phat
Member
Posts: 9499
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 346 of 363 (811961)
06-13-2017 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 307 by ringo
06-07-2017 4:48 PM


Freely Ignored
ringo writes:

There was never any need to create "Satan".

As I may have said a time or two before, I believe that God created a free willed Lucifer and also created the possibility of evil ....an attractive nuisance if you will. By choosing to deny/ignore/override God, Lucifer thus became Satan.

Is what you are saying that hypothetically there was never any need to create the possibility of evil?

What about the possibility of ignoring God? On the one hand, you guys complain that He never reveals Himself. On the other hand, you have chosen to go with the "evidence" that proves His absence. Should God have hypothetically given you this freedom?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by ringo, posted 06-07-2017 4:48 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by jar, posted 06-13-2017 7:52 PM Phat has responded
 Message 355 by ringo, posted 06-14-2017 3:19 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29143
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 347 of 363 (811965)
06-13-2017 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by Phat
06-13-2017 7:26 PM


Re: Freely Ignored
Phat writes:

As I may have said a time or two before, I believe that God created a free willed Lucifer and also created the possibility of evil ....an attractive nuisance if you will. By choosing to deny/ignore/override God, Lucifer thus became Satan.

Can you help us with Biblical passages that support that position?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by Phat, posted 06-13-2017 7:26 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Phat, posted 06-13-2017 11:53 PM jar has responded
 Message 351 by Phat, posted 06-14-2017 11:43 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9499
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 348 of 363 (811999)
06-13-2017 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by jar
06-13-2017 7:52 PM


Re: Freely Ignored
No, it is not found. There are none that specifically refute the notion either, however.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by jar, posted 06-13-2017 7:52 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 349 by jar, posted 06-14-2017 7:14 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29143
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 349 of 363 (812009)
06-14-2017 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 348 by Phat
06-13-2017 11:53 PM


Re: Freely Ignored
LOL.

But there really is a supporting source for your belief and it is a poem written by Durante degli Alighieri about twenty years before Columbus first voyage to the New World.

That hardly seems "Biblical".


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Phat, posted 06-13-2017 11:53 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by Phat, posted 06-14-2017 11:32 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9499
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 350 of 363 (812028)
06-14-2017 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 349 by jar
06-14-2017 7:14 AM


Re: Freely Ignored
As you yourself would say, religious dogma and/or shared societal ideas about God and Gods nature are not limited exclusively to the book now known as the Bible.

Which of course lends support to your assertion that God is a product of human myth and legend.

I believe that this is not exclusively the case. I believe that God exists and would exist without any Bibles, stories, or legends.

Where we may have a point of contention involves a consensus on what characteristics such a Creator of all seen and unseen would actually have apart from what humans want Him to have.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by jar, posted 06-14-2017 7:14 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9499
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 351 of 363 (812031)
06-14-2017 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 347 by jar
06-13-2017 7:52 PM


Re: Freely Ignored
Phat writes:

As I may have said a time or two before, I believe that God created a free willed Lucifer and also created the possibility of evil ....an attractive nuisance if you will. By choosing to deny/ignore/override God, Lucifer thus became Satan.


jar writes:

Can you help us with Biblical passages that support that position?

In addition, I disagree with your idea that GOD is complete, rather than simply good.

To me, it seems more logical that evil was created as a necessary possibility (in order to preserve free will) rather than as an absolute yang countering goods yin.

I realize that Isaiah says otherwise...but I am allowing my own belief to further explain the God I want rather than quite possibly the GOD who is.

If the GOD WHO Is is totally unlike the God who in my mind seems more fair and just, I would be extremely disillusioned and defiant towards such a Being.

I have heard entire sermons describing why God is good all the time and all the time God is good. It is a bumper sticker in contemporary Christianity.

Having Satan as a plot device...a villain who freely chose to rebel...is better in that it gives us something to resist and to hate. How on earth would we ever get along with a GOD Who not only was indifferent to our prayers but Who was at times evil towards us?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by jar, posted 06-13-2017 7:52 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by jar, posted 06-14-2017 3:00 PM Phat has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11552
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 352 of 363 (812048)
06-14-2017 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by Tangle
06-13-2017 2:56 PM


I replied to this message here: Message 73.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Tangle, posted 06-13-2017 2:56 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29143
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 353 of 363 (812064)
06-14-2017 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 351 by Phat
06-14-2017 11:43 AM


Re: Freely Ignored
Phat writes:

I realize that Isaiah says otherwise...but I am allowing my own belief to further explain the God I want rather than quite possibly the GOD who is.

If the GOD WHO Is is totally unlike the God who in my mind seems more fair and just, I would be extremely disillusioned and defiant towards such a Being.

Yes, thank you for acknowledging you are creating the God you want.

The evidence shows you are not alone in doing that.

The author or authors of the Genesis 2&3 stories created a god that is very human, powerful, commanding, somewhat bumbling but also friendly, fearful, unsure but approachable.

The author or authors of the Genesis 1 story created a god that is supremely competent, aloof, always sure, commanding but also apart, having no contact with the creation.

Humans can only worship the god they create.

The Trinity is an invention of a time hundreds of years after Jesus, not something that existed at the time any of the Bible stories were written.

The Trinity is a human creation and has whatever meaning humans give it.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by Phat, posted 06-14-2017 11:43 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by Phat, posted 06-15-2017 9:44 AM jar has responded
 Message 359 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-15-2017 11:15 AM jar has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13326
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 354 of 363 (812068)
06-14-2017 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by Phat
06-13-2017 6:52 PM


Re: Re-Trinity
Phat writes:

Must a belief be provable before you embrace it?


If it was provable, there would be no reason to believe. The only time a belief should be embraced is when it can not be proven.

Phat writes:

What possible reasons would you have for rejecting it?


You tell me. What possible reasons could you have for rejecting belief in leprechauns?

Phat writes:

Perhaps you came from a family of believers who made no sense.


Actually, it was believers trying to prove their beliefs that convinced me they didn't know what they were talking about.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Phat, posted 06-13-2017 6:52 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13326
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 355 of 363 (812072)
06-14-2017 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by Phat
06-13-2017 7:26 PM


Re: Freely Ignored
Phat writes:

As I may have said a time or two before, I believe that God created a free willed Lucifer and also created the possibility of evil ....


As I have said before, I think "free will" is a nonsense concept.

Phat writes:

....an attractive nuisance if you will.


According to Wikipedia:
quote:
The attractive nuisance doctrine applies to the law of torts, in the United States. It states that a landowner may be held liable for injuries to children trespassing on the land if the injury is caused by an object on the land that is likely to attract children. The doctrine is designed to protect children who are unable to appreciate the risk posed by the object, by imposing a liability on the landowner. The doctrine has been applied to hold landowners liable for injuries caused by abandoned cars, piles of lumber or sand, trampolines, and swimming pools. However, it can be applied to virtually anything on the property of the landowner.

The creator is responsible.

Phat writes:

On the one hand, you guys complain that He never reveals Himself. On the other hand, you have chosen to go with the "evidence" that proves His absence.


How does that differ from your attitude toward leprechauns?

Phat writes:

What about the possibility of ignoring God? ...Should God have hypothetically given you this freedom?


Why does God need me so badly that He's willing to burn me if I ignore Him?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by Phat, posted 06-13-2017 7:26 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by Phat, posted 06-15-2017 9:23 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9499
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 356 of 363 (812170)
06-15-2017 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 355 by ringo
06-14-2017 3:19 PM


Re: Freely Ignored
Why does God need me so badly that He's willing to burn me if I ignore Him?
More likely is the belief that YOU need Him and will burn yourself by playing with foreign leprechauns.
How does that differ from your attitude toward leprechauns?
My attitude towards leprechauns is similar to my attitude towards a pair of fake Air Jordans sold on e-bay. I go with quality and have chosen what I consider the top quality product.

You remain unconvinced that you even need a pair of Jordans and point out to us that they are all shoes.

So essentially you are asking us (me) why you should buy what I market.

Correct?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by ringo, posted 06-14-2017 3:19 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by ringo, posted 06-15-2017 11:37 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9499
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 357 of 363 (812175)
06-15-2017 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 353 by jar
06-14-2017 3:00 PM


Re: Freely Ignored
jar writes:

The Trinity is an invention of a time hundreds of years after Jesus, not something that existed at the time any of the Bible stories were written.

The Trinity is a human creation and has whatever meaning humans give it.

I dont believe that humans simply invent doctrines without at least believing that the doctrine is sound.

Essential Truths Of The Christian Faith writes:

The Swiss theologian Karl Barth was asked by a student during a seminar in the United States, Dr. Barth, what is the most profound thing you have ever learned in your study of theology? Barth thought for a moment and then replied, Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so. The students giggled at his simplistic answer, but their laughter was of a nervous sort as they slowly realized Barth was serious.(...)Barth gave a simple answer to a question of profundity. In doing so he was calling attention to at least two vitally important notions. (1) That in the simplest Christian truth there resides a profundity that can occupy the minds of the most brilliant people for a lifetime. (2) That even in learned theological sophistication, we never really rise above a childs level of understanding the mysterious depths and riches of the character of God.

Thus I can agree that we "make up" the God we wish to worship and that reality suggests that the GOD Who Is is likely unlike the One we desire.

I challenge that notion for two reasons. (Both of them beliefs that I choose to embrace)
1) GOD if GOD exists wants a relationship with us.
If this isn't true, what point would there even be to believe?

2) GOD has given us an inner unction to find Him.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by jar, posted 06-14-2017 3:00 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by jar, posted 06-15-2017 10:21 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29143
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 358 of 363 (812180)
06-15-2017 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 357 by Phat
06-15-2017 9:44 AM


Re: Freely Ignored
Phat writes:

I dont believe that humans simply invent doctrines without at least believing that the doctrine is sound.

Humans are eminently capable of convincing themselves even the most ridiculous things are true.

Note you yourself go on to say "Thus I can agree that we "make up" the God we wish to worship and that reality suggests that the GOD Who Is is likely unlike the One we desire."

But this is still unrelated to the topic which is the meaning of the trinity.

The answer to that question seems to be "The Trinity is a concept created by humans and incorporated as an Article of Faith in some religions".

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by Phat, posted 06-15-2017 9:44 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11552
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 359 of 363 (812190)
06-15-2017 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 353 by jar
06-14-2017 3:00 PM


Re: Freely Ignored
Yes, thank you for acknowledging you are creating the God you want.

We all should do that...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by jar, posted 06-14-2017 3:00 PM jar has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13326
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 360 of 363 (812194)
06-15-2017 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 356 by Phat
06-15-2017 9:23 AM


Re: Freely Ignored
Phat writes:

More likely is the belief that YOU need Him and will burn yourself by playing with foreign leprechauns.


How is that more likely?

Phat writes:

My attitude towards leprechauns is similar to my attitude towards a pair of fake Air Jordans sold on e-bay. I go with quality and have chosen what I consider the top quality product.


I'm asking WHY you think one product is better quality than the other.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by Phat, posted 06-15-2017 9:23 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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