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Author Topic:   Mary in the Roman Catholic Church - intercession or idolatry?
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3706 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 1 of 132 (250393)
10-10-2005 9:38 AM


In http://EvC Forum: RC Church accepts evolution? again? -->EvC Forum: RC Church accepts evolution? again?, Faith states that the RC Church “worships” Mary and has used the term “Mariolatry”. There is also a claim that the RC Church “worships” saints.
The issue turned up ages ago (with Mike the Wiz) as a side issue in another topic and, whilst dealt with, it wasn’t really examined in detail. Now the claim has turned up again, and again it is a side issue. I’ve proposed this topic to examine the issue, to look at the evidence on which the claim is based and to determine if there is any basis for the claim.
To enable the discussion to proceed, I would appreciate Admin copying and pasting the original off-topic posts from above to this new topic.
Edited to add - Faith/Belief is appropriate for this
Edited again to add Roman to the Catholic in the title, I don't know how this slipped by. I'm specifically talking of the claim of "worship" of Mary in the Roman Catholic Church since that was the claim that was made
Copied here from PNT by AdminBen
This message has been edited by Trixie, 10-10-2005 08:40 AM
This message has been edited by AdminBen, Monday, 2005/10/10 06:40 AM
This message has been edited by Trixie, 10-10-2005 11:25 AM

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 10-10-2005 10:36 AM Trixie has not replied
 Message 3 by iano, posted 10-10-2005 11:34 AM Trixie has not replied
 Message 83 by Philip, posted 10-11-2005 6:28 PM Trixie has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2 of 132 (250406)
10-10-2005 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Trixie
10-10-2005 9:38 AM


a bit of clarification and edification.
Hi, Trixie. It looks as if this topic is now launched and in the water! One suggestion that I have for you is that since you are the originator of this topic, feel free to grab some quotes from those old threads that you were talking about. You can then respond to those quotes and continue THIS topic along its merry (no pun intended) way.
Here is my opinion on the topic as stated:
Mary in the Catholic Church-intercession or idolatry?
I am not a Catholic. I suspect that Faith is not one, either.
I look at the church as one body, however.
Websters writes:
catholic \kath-lik, ka-the-\ adj 1 cap : of or relating to Catholics and esp. Roman Catholics 2 : general, universal
To me, catholic means universal. Thus, the church is the Bride of Christ. The church is not limited to any denomination. The church is not merely the Roman Catholics. The church is the ones whom God chose and who chose Him back.
Trixie writes:
What RCs do is ask Mary to intercede on their behalf, to pray to God for them. After all, He might listen to his Mum. That's NOT worship, that's not idolatory.
What do you mean about "walk on their knees around her statue"? How many times have you seen this?? I can tell you that I've never walked on my knees around her statue, I've never seen anyone walk on their knees round her statue and I would consider it unusual to say the least. I don't deny that it may happen, but it is not part of the teaching of the RC church.
Faith writes:
Sigh. Yes, I know it's controversial. It's a Protestant-Catholic thing.
Jar writes:
Is it a Protestant-Catholic thing or a Fundamentalist Christian thing? I know that most Protestants don't see the Catholics as worshipping Mary.
Faith writes:
Jesus is presented in scripture as our one and only intercessor. Only God can hear our prayers, and this RC practice does elevate a mere human being above Him.
Trixie writes:
So Jesus is our intercessor between ourselves and God. That means that God is our intercessor between God and God. Sounds like you might be a tad confused. And if Mary being an intercessor is elevating a mere human being above Him (I am assuming you mean God, but you don't seem very clear on this point), then Jesus being an intercessor is raising Jesus above God and that means raising God above God. Are you sure this is what you really meant to say?
I'm sorry, but I cannot understand how you can possibly say that an intercessor is above God. They're a go-between, someone who is above us, but in no way does it put Mary above God or Jesus. If you think the RC Church is putting Mary above God, why don't they just worship Mary and forget God?
Good point, Trixie.
This message has been edited by Phat, 10-10-2005 08:56 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 3 of 132 (250419)
10-10-2005 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Trixie
10-10-2005 9:38 AM


Trixie writes:
So Jesus is our intercessor between ourselves and God. That means that God is our intercessor between God and God. Sounds like you might be a tad confused.
Would it help if the words "Father" and "Son" were inserted - which is not unbiblical terminology? The Son intercedes with the Father. Father, Son and Spirit are distinct persons within the one Godhead so one can intercede with the other it would seem. Afterall, Jesus, although God, did pray to his Father on our behalf. He asked his father to "forgive them, for they know not what they do". Is this not intercession? God the Son interceding with God Father
Your thinking above could equally be applied to God sacrificing God in order to save man. But how can God sacrifice God? Again one needs to insert "Father" can sacrifice "Son" - which RC has no problem with. So why not Son intercede with Father?
Questions follow:
If Jesus can intercede on our behalf with the Father then what is the need for another intercessor?
What use a lowlier intercessor if the best is available? Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father afterall. He has the Fathers ear so to speak. Marys position in relation to the Father or Son is unknown. There is nothing to suggest that she has Jesus ear.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Trixie, posted 10-10-2005 9:38 AM Trixie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Faith, posted 10-10-2005 11:44 AM iano has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 4 of 132 (250420)
10-10-2005 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
10-10-2005 10:36 AM


Reformation Protestant point of view
It is PRAYING TO Mary that is idolatrous, and putting her in the place of Jesus Christ, who according to scripture is our Intercessor. It is idolatry to treat her, a mere human being, as capable of hearing the prayers of millions of Catholics simultaneously. That is putting her in the role of God. It is completely irrelevant what she is being asked to do, that is, intercede with her Son or whatever. Only God can hear prayer.
Just for the record, here is my post where I link to a few sites that discuss the point from a Protestant perspective. I included a site by Ian Paisley without knowing who he is, but what he said about Mariolatry is quite in tune with Reformation Protestant thought, and whatever else he may happen to believe doesn't enter into this particular subject.
http://EvC Forum: RC Church accepts evolution? again? -->EvC Forum: RC Church accepts evolution? again?
{Edit: Sorry, I didn't mean to address this to you, Phat. It was just my response to the topic itself.}
This message has been edited by Faith, 10-10-2005 11:41 AM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 5 of 132 (250422)
10-10-2005 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by iano
10-10-2005 11:34 AM


Hi Iano,
I think it's more to the point that Jesus is both God and Man, fully Man and fully God. In fact He wouldn't qualify to be our intercessor with the Father if He didn't share our nature.
{By Edit: Oops, error here, but not sure how important it is. It is to qualify as our Mediator that He must share our nature. But that brings up another way Mary is put in the place of Christ by the RCC, as they have given her the title Mediatrix.}
This message has been edited by Faith, 10-10-2005 11:48 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by iano, posted 10-10-2005 11:34 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 10-10-2005 11:59 AM Faith has replied
 Message 40 by iano, posted 10-11-2005 4:53 AM Faith has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 6 of 132 (250424)
10-10-2005 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Faith
10-10-2005 11:44 AM


Mediatrix, mediums between Godhead,and mediocre conclusions
Has the Roman Catholic church given Mary that title officially?
Websters writes:
mediate \me-de-at\ vb -ated; -ating 1 : to act as an intermediary; esp : to work with opposing sides in order to resolve (as a dispute) or bring about (as a settlement) 2 : to bring about, influence, or transmit (as a physical process or effect) by acting as an intermediate or controlling agent or mechanism syn intercede, intervene, interpose, interfere mediation \me-de-a-shen\ n mediator \me-de-a-ter\ n
Intercessor...not idol!
Faith writes:
It is completely irrelevant what she is being asked to do, that is, intercede with her Son or whatever. Only God can hear prayer.
Then why worry about it?
This message has been edited by Phat, 10-10-2005 10:07 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Faith, posted 10-10-2005 11:44 AM Faith has replied

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 Message 8 by Faith, posted 10-10-2005 12:10 PM Phat has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 7 of 132 (250426)
10-10-2005 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
10-10-2005 11:59 AM


Re: Mediatrix, mediums between Godhead,and mediocre conclusions
Not yet officially officialized, but getting there:
quote:
1987-MAR-25: In his encyclical Redemptoris Mater, Pope John Paul II "referred to Mary as 'Mediatrix' three times, and as 'Advocate' twice."
The Virgin Mary as co-redemptrix, mediatrix and advocate
There is also opposition reported at the same site:
quote:
Father Laurentin is a French monk and the world's leading Mary scholar. He believes that: "Mary is the model of our faith but she is not divine. There is no mediation or co-redemption except in Christ. He alone is God."
The same site points out that Mary's supposed "immaculate conception" and assumption into heaven HAVE been made official, neither of which has any scriptural justification, and both of which usurp qualities of Christ.
This message has been edited by Faith, 10-10-2005 12:08 PM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 8 of 132 (250427)
10-10-2005 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
10-10-2005 11:59 AM


Mary cannot hear prayer
Only God can hear prayer.
Then why worry about it?
Putting Mary in the place of God is something Catholics should be very very worried about.
This message has been edited by Faith, 10-10-2005 12:13 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 10 by jar, posted 10-10-2005 3:21 PM Faith has replied
 Message 15 by Trixie, posted 10-10-2005 4:09 PM Faith has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 9 of 132 (250429)
10-10-2005 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Faith
10-10-2005 12:10 PM


Re: Mediatrix
Faith writes:
Putting Mary in the place of God is something Catholics should be very very worried about.
True that putting anything in the place of God is a worry...it is sin defined. Yet we ALL do it.
Harping on a female interceesor instead of a male intercessor is not conducive to spiritual acceptance. God judges the heart, and each individual has to give account. It is not our place to worry about the Catholics.

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 Message 8 by Faith, posted 10-10-2005 12:10 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 10 of 132 (250449)
10-10-2005 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Faith
10-10-2005 12:10 PM


Once Again Faith misrepresents other's positions.
Putting Mary in the place of God is something Catholics should be very very worried about.
And you have been told, by both Roman Catholics and Non-Roman Catholics, that that is a misrepresentation of what is done.
You have been unable to supply any supporting information that Roman Catholics put Mary in the place of GOD. The sites you linkied to were a blog, some op ed piece and the one you seem to most agree with, the site of a Bigot and fomenter of terrorism, Ian Paisley.
Isn't it time that you stopped misrepresenting other's positions?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 10-10-2005 12:10 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 10-10-2005 3:39 PM jar has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 11 of 132 (250456)
10-10-2005 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by jar
10-10-2005 3:21 PM


"Protestant" has "protest" in it for good reason
Disagreeing with them is not misrepresenting them. They claim they are not putting Mary in the place of God. A simple consideration of what they actually teach and believe shows that they do. This is the Protestant position since the Reformation. Apparently the Reformation means little to many who call themselves Protestants these days, but it was a profound protest against this and many other errors of the Roman Church. The Reformers even identified the RCC with the Antichrist. You are of course free to disagree with the Reformers and side with the RCC. It's a free country.

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 Message 10 by jar, posted 10-10-2005 3:21 PM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 12 of 132 (250464)
10-10-2005 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
10-10-2005 3:39 PM


Faith continues to post misrepresentations.
Sorry but you have yet to show a single example that supports your assertions and in fact, many people have pointed out to you that you are wrong once again.
Until you can provide some support for your assertion it would be best if you simply stopped misrepresenting what people do.
What YOU believe folk do has no bearing on the reality.
I don't disagree with the reformers, only with those who are not capable of distinguishing between reality and fantasy and those who support a religion of bigotry and intolerance.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 10-10-2005 3:39 PM Faith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 13 of 132 (250465)
10-10-2005 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
10-10-2005 3:39 PM


Re: "Protestant" has "protest" in it for good reason
Faith writes:
Apparently the Reformation means little to many who call themselves Protestants these days.
So why call yourself anything? Why not call yourself human and join the planet?
I know what you are trying to say, Faith. My question is this:
Why are you saying it? Is it helpful? Is it conducive to discussion?
Who am I to say that my friend idolizes football, for example? Even if he does not go to church and watches the N.F.L. on sundays?
Maybe in his own way of life, he thinks that waiting for that special hail mary pass is equivalent to hearing the local preacher, whom some idolize, talk of Hell and Death for those heathen who don't go to church.
As for Mary in the church, my Mom is named Mary.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 10-10-2005 3:39 PM Faith has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 14 of 132 (250466)
10-10-2005 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Phat
10-10-2005 4:01 PM


Re: "Protestant" has "protest" in it for good reason
I am simply participating on this thread to answer Trixie's questions, Phat. She challenged me about using the term "Mariolatry" to describe Catholic practice and I am answering her. I don't have any other motivation so I don't know why you keep talking about motivation.

This message is a reply to:
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Trixie
Member (Idle past 3706 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 15 of 132 (250469)
10-10-2005 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Faith
10-10-2005 12:10 PM


Re: Mary cannot hear prayer
And that's the whole nub of the topic!!! Faith, you said
Putting Mary in the place of God is something Catholics should be very very worried about.
And I agree wholeheartedly with you. However, you have failed dismally to provide any evidence to support your opinion that this is what Roman Catholics do.
Your first attempt at providing evidence was
Depends on the definition of "worship" and the RC Church is very good at splitting hairs on definitions, but I call it worship when followers of an apparition of "Mary" assemble by the multiplied thousands, ask her for favors, and walk on their knees around her statue. Some opinions are true you know.
When it was pointed out to you by a practicing RC that they have never seen this and never done this, your only defence was
I've seen this walking-on-their-knees phenomenon at least described in a (very positive, Catholic-inspired) book about the Medjugorje apparitions.
And that's your evidence - you read it in a book. When pressed further for evidence, you included a blog site and a link to a site by Rev Ian Paisley!!! Of your own source, you said
Again I deplore the violence, and obviously shouldn't even use him as an example.
yet you now say
I included a site by Ian Paisley without knowing who he is, but what he said about Mariolatry is quite in tune with Reformation Protestant thought, and whatever else he may happen to believe doesn't enter into this particular subject.
I would point out that the fact he is an antiRC bigot is very relevant in assessing the validity of his opinions on Roman Catholics!!!
Just to recap, the only evidence you've provided, which you read in a book, has been shown to be totally wrong Oh, and the opinion of a man who thunders on about "idolators" and "papists" when he speaks about Roman Catholics. A man who fought tooth and nail against Roman Catholics being given equal rights in housing, employment and jobs. His opinion counts for diddlysquat.
It was pointed out to you
Did you know that the RC Church has refused to have anything to do with Medjugorje? Have a hunt on the internet and find out what the Bishop of Mostar thinks about it.
and you replied
But what authority does one Bishop have in the whole institution?
Well, considering that he was giving the official RCC line on the subject, I would say quite a bit, but authority has nothng to do with it. He's saying the same as Rome, he's saying the same as my Dean and parish priest, he's saying the same as my former Archbishop and now Cardinal. They're all saying the same thing!!! Now, some people may choose to disregard this, but you can't then say that these people represent the RCC when what they do and say is diametrically opposed to the RCC. If you discount the opinion of the RCC on the RCC position,then we're left with your opinion and your opinion alone.
As for your observation
Disagreeing with them is not misrepresenting them. They claim they are not putting Mary in the place of God. A simple consideration of what they actually teach and believe shows that they do.
You just don't get it, do you? What you think they're doing and what they're doing are two different things. You've been told from the horse's mouth exactly what Roman Catholics are doing. I know much better than you what I'm doing in the privacy of my heart and mind. Yet you presume to tell me that you have more idea of what goes on there than I do.
Let me try this again. Can you provide evidence that what Roman Catholics do is worship Mary? Your one solid attempt at this (the walking on knees around statues of the BVM) has been shown to be bunkum. Try again.
So, what further evidence do you have?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 10-10-2005 12:10 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 10-10-2005 4:28 PM Trixie has replied

  
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