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Author Topic:   Is the concept of The Fall reasonable?
PaulK
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Posts: 17815
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 256 of 304 (290622)
02-26-2006 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by iano
02-26-2006 1:40 PM


Re: Meekness, majesty, manhood & deity
No, justice is not just about adherence to laws. And justice requires that the punishment should be no more than is justified by the severity of the crime.
You can pay lip service to the idea of justice all you like. But simply attributing injustices to God and demanding that they be considered just because you say is opposed to justice and honesty. To call others perverted just for placing true justice ahead of your dogma is itself a perversion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by iano, posted 02-26-2006 1:40 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by iano, posted 02-26-2006 2:38 PM PaulK has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 257 of 304 (290629)
02-26-2006 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by PaulK
02-26-2006 2:18 PM


Re: Meekness, majesty, manhood & deity
No, justice is not just about adherence to laws. And justice requires that the punishment should be no more than is justified by the severity of the crime.
What else is justice fundementally about? I don't mean the motivation for it but just justice itself.
I have full confidence that God will match perfectly the punishment to the crime. As there will be greater and lesser in the kingdom of heaven whilst there being perfect bliss for all there, so too will there be (I imagine) greater and lesser in the pit of hell whilst the misery remains perfectly so.
The only question remains is to decide on severity of punishment. The key to understanding our rebellion is to look at him in whom there is no darkness at all. At all. He is completely holy. Compared to him we in sin are as far from holy as the east is from the west ie: infinitely distant. Trying to rank individuals according to level of sin is as futile as sitting on Andromeda and trying to see whether one grain of sand on an earthly beach is a tad nearer Andromeda than the other.
The grains of sand themselves might have a view on sin - but it is a subjective one. They aren't seeing it from Gods perspective. If sin was a relatively minor affair then there would have been little reason to go through the measures that God had to go through in order to attempt to rectify things. Sacrificing a beloved son is not the action of a God with all kinds of options open to him.
'Omnipotent' doesn't mean God can do absolutely anything at all.
This message has been edited by iano, 26-Feb-2006 07:39 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by PaulK, posted 02-26-2006 2:18 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by PaulK, posted 02-26-2006 2:51 PM iano has replied
 Message 271 by DBlevins, posted 02-26-2006 5:50 PM iano has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17815
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 258 of 304 (290631)
02-26-2006 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by iano
02-26-2006 2:38 PM


Re: Meekness, majesty, manhood & deity
I don't see how anyone with an understanding of the concept of justice could equate it to simply following laws. Even the British legal system recognises otherwise with the concept of "natural justice".
But you have to understand that just as you will judge actions that toehrs might attribute to God as just or unjust, so the actions that you attribute to God may be judged by others.
Creating an imperfect God in your imagination and worshipping that is no "key" to understanding. I am not in "rebellion" against God for the simple fact that I have no knwledge of God as such. How, then, could I rebel ? The whole idea is meaningless.

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 Message 257 by iano, posted 02-26-2006 2:38 PM iano has replied

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 Message 259 by iano, posted 02-26-2006 3:51 PM PaulK has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 259 of 304 (290641)
02-26-2006 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by PaulK
02-26-2006 2:51 PM


Re: Meekness, majesty, manhood & deity
Natural justice says it is wrong to skip a queue - but I doubt you would be hauled before a magistrate for it. Natural justice is another name for that which has yet (if ever) to be codified. And all of it finds its source in God. Codification of natural law came later. It is interesting to see that both man and God codified natural laws.
Whether one skips a queue or skips ones taxes matters not. Justice will be applied by God. Serving time for a crime against mans laws is not the end of the story. That is only mans affair. All sin, whether punishment for it was administered or not here, will be judged by God.
But you have to understand that just as you will judge actions that others might attribute to God as just or unjust, so the actions that you attribute to God may be judged by others.
Was I judging? Sorry if it appeared so. I am giving an opinion as to how God sees it. Note that I include myself (without Christ) in amongst the perverts. There's no kettle calling the pot black as far as I can see. I'm as black as they come. At the end of the day, folk are, for now, free to think what they like about God. He's the one who judges, I'm simply trying to remind folk of that fact whilst they point the finger at him. And while there is time for something to be done about it.
Creating an imperfect God in your imagination and worshipping that is no "key" to understanding
.
Understanding what? I don't understand you here Paul
I am not in "rebellion" against God for the simple fact that I have no knowledge of God as such. How, then, could I rebel ? The whole idea is meaningless.
You have a conscience. You know when you do right and wrong. That is his call on you - amongst other things. Now you can say to yourself that you subscribe to the idea that this conscience is a product of blind evolutionary forces. You may actually believe it in your intellect. God however says that you (which is not just intellect) know better. Not crystal clear, not spelt out in big letters "God Says". But somewhere inside you you are aware of something, anything, that says this isn't a load of tripe. You can repress that - or let it grow in you. That's down to you.
And he'll hold you to whatever choice you make. If you let him he'll come and wipe away your sin for you. If you refuse him, you'll arrive in court before him with boxes full of sin labelled "exhibit A". Caught red handed so to speak.
If British Justice is anything like Irish Justice (which considering our past it very likely is) then you will know that there is no defence before the law based on ignorance of the law. Our law supposes that something built into humans knows sufficient to cause them to pause before embarking on an action. God will show you that you knew what you shouldn't do, could have chosen differently but chose not to. That you were not ignorant. He has a frame-by-frame dvd of your whole life before him already. Every word, every deed, every thought you have made or will make.
Judgement is not a trial - all the evidence is available and there is only one verdict available based on this evidence. Judgement is simply the declaration of guilt. There will be no barristers arguing the case. The case is already closed.
This is getting off the subject of the Fall. God is under no obligation to lift so much as a finger to rectify that which Adam instigated and we continue to fan the flames of. He could have left us all to our fate before him and still have been just. That he didn't is a testimony to the extent of his being 'obligated' to satisfy his love as well as his justice and wrath (against sin)

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 Message 258 by PaulK, posted 02-26-2006 2:51 PM PaulK has replied

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 Message 260 by PaulK, posted 02-26-2006 4:21 PM iano has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17815
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 260 of 304 (290648)
02-26-2006 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by iano
02-26-2006 3:51 PM


Re: Meekness, majesty, manhood & deity
Don't try and tell me that you would never decide that God wouldn't do something because it woul be unjust. But that involves exactly the sort of judgement I'm talking about.
As for conscience if that is a message from God it tells me to reject your ideas. And no, I'm not in rebellion against that.
quote:
Now you can say to yourself that you subscribe to the idea that this conscience is a product of blind evolutionary forces. You may actually believe it in your intellect. God however says that you (which is not just intellect) know better. Not crystal clear, not spelt out in big letters "God Says". But somewhere inside you you are aware of something, anything, that says this isn't a load of tripe. You can repress that - or let it grow in you. That's down to you.
Or perhaps there isn't any such thing in my mind. No, God is not a presence in my life. God is just something other people beleive in. Or pretend to believe in.
To go on the question of justice and ignorance of the law is a different question. In general it is taken that we have a duty to know the law. Since there is no way to know God's law then ignorance would seem to be a valid defence. If you beleive in justice.
And you do not even seem to understand my objectiosn to the Fall. If God set it all up to happen - which seems inevitable given common Christian ideas of God - then he is responsible. Thus it is His responsibility at least as much as it is anyone elses. That is the problem you have to deal with. A

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by iano, posted 02-26-2006 3:51 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by iano, posted 02-26-2006 5:11 PM PaulK has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 261 of 304 (290655)
02-26-2006 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by iano
02-26-2006 1:23 PM


Re: Meekness, majesty, manhood & deity
During this time of dispensation, everybody, in being allowed to operate as free agents, has the right to question God. In doing so and hearing answers, His hope is that they might well come to know him. A person who comes to know God considers questioning him as completely irrelevant. In their better moments anyway.
The "right to question" is God-given as is the right to do anything else. But it doesn't make it any less perverse to do so. Perverts, of which I (without Christ) am one, cannot but help act perversely.
I'm glad you have the boldness to say this. Questioning God is indeed perverse, a sin, and the common idea we hear so much that it is the other way around only justifies the sin. All this stuff about how we were given minds/brains in order to think these things through ourselves, how our inquiring minds are approved by God, and how only idiots refuse to question God and His word --- all just the fallen mind at its business of enmity to God. It's the other way around. Thanks for saying it.
This message has been edited by Faith, 02-26-2006 05:03 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by iano, posted 02-26-2006 1:23 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by iano, posted 02-26-2006 5:20 PM Faith has replied
 Message 264 by lfen, posted 02-26-2006 5:24 PM Faith has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 262 of 304 (290656)
02-26-2006 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by PaulK
02-26-2006 4:21 PM


Re: Meekness, majesty, manhood & deity
Don't try and tell me that you would never decide that God wouldn't do something because it woul be unjust. But that involves exactly the sort of judgement I'm talking about.
You may have heard it before but it worth repeating. There is no such thing as darkness or cold. Darkness and cold are simply absence of light and heat. Perhaps there is no such thing as evil per se other than it being the absence of good. Evil is what occurs when goodness isn't around. God being light and good cannot do evil. He cannot escape himself.
To go on the question of justice and ignorance of the law is a different question. In general it is taken that we have a duty to know the law. Since there is no way to know God's law then ignorance would seem to be a valid defence. If you believe in justice
Jesus summed up our duty in a couple of compact sentences. Love God and do unto others. There isn't anything more to it than that. Nor is there anything more impossible to do than that. It doesn't have to be his problem that we cannot keep the law. But he made it his problem.
When someone skips the queue on you next time watch "do unto others - the concept" well up inside you and then turn into irritation
Should you be tempted to accuse him of setting impossible standards then you might like to include where you think the standard should be set. A bar which a paedophile could jump over for instance.
And you do not even seem to understand my objection to the Fall. If God set it all up to happen - which seems inevitable given common Christian ideas of God - then he is responsible. Thus it is His responsibility at least as much as it is anyone elses. That is the problem you have to deal with.
In order for this to hold water you would have to suppose that God couldn't create a free-willed being who was not biased to chose one way or the other but who made their own decisions. Given the complexity of what else he made I don't see what the issue would be here.
And if he could do so, simple foreknowledge as to what choice that person would make, if not influencing the choice, is little reason to lay any responsibility at Gods feet for the choice taken. If man hadn't taken that choice we would be all grumbling that he didn't give us free will (well we wouldn't actually, seeing as there would have been no sin in us)
I think your argument is limited by the confines of the human experience. We cannot make systems with free will so we know not of which we speak. Trying to shoehorn the obvious truths of what you say were we dealing with human-level designs, into the situation involving God is not valid grounds for objection I would hold.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by PaulK, posted 02-26-2006 4:21 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by PaulK, posted 02-26-2006 5:33 PM iano has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 263 of 304 (290660)
02-26-2006 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by Faith
02-26-2006 5:01 PM


Re: Meekness, majesty, manhood & deity
Thanks Faith. Knowing myself as I do, I worry about crossing the line from trying to convey the truth as best I understand it to being judgemental and harsh - simply so as to 'win' arguments.
If you think I do the latter at any point, anywhere here then I would appreciate you saying that too.
It looks like I might be making my debut speaking in church one of these fine days. The topic running through my head at the moment is one on Hell. You don't hear a whole lot about it down my way. Oh dear....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Faith, posted 02-26-2006 5:01 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Faith, posted 02-26-2006 5:26 PM iano has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4667 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 264 of 304 (290661)
02-26-2006 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by Faith
02-26-2006 5:01 PM


Re: Meekness, majesty, manhood & deity
I'm glad you have the boldness to say this. Questioning God is indeed perverse, a sin,
Where do I go to question God?
Are you God that if I question you I am a perverse sinner? Is Iano God, Pat Robertson? the Pope? St. Paul? the writer(s) of the Pentauch? All these are people. I question them and for my daring to disagree with you and your authorities, all of whom are human beings, I'm told I am committing the sin of questioning God!??!
This is perhaps the clearest example yet of why I gave up Christianity in disgust. What you, Iano, and Randman are talking about is one human cultural tradition which you claim that you and you alone know is what the source of the Universe says. It is you I am questioning. To tell me in questioning you I am committing a perverse sin is astounding narcissism, a smug egotism that may be the hallmark of Christians. Well, at least some Christians.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Faith, posted 02-26-2006 5:01 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Faith, posted 02-26-2006 5:32 PM lfen has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 265 of 304 (290662)
02-26-2006 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by iano
02-26-2006 5:20 PM


Re: Meekness, majesty, manhood & deity
I picked my pastor precisely because he is someone who preaches on hell and is willing to scare the stuffing out of you whatever he is preaching. None of this wishywashy stuff so many churches like to preach these days. You know, the idea that Christian "love" means ignoring everything bad and sinful and dangerous.
I'm always being criticized for being too judgmental and harsh and mean and everything else, so I'm not the one to keep YOU straight. I think you're generally right on anyway.
I'll pray for your debut if you remind me. MIght you become a pastor some day? Elder of your church at least?
And please continue to pray for me. Anybody who tries to witness on the internet is in the devil's territory and we're all weak.
Actually, the sermon this morning was all about how anybody who dares to speak God's word needs God's power and that takes prayer; otherwise the devil easily undoes anything we do.
{abe: Sermons about hell can be the start of great revivals. Get a bunch of people to pray for your speaking debut. Ask God to send the Holy Spirit in great power. Wales had great revivals in the early 20th century. It's Ireland's turn. Then send it over here. I've got this all figured out. But God will straighten me out I'm sure.
This message has been edited by Faith, 02-26-2006 05:36 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by iano, posted 02-26-2006 5:20 PM iano has replied

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 Message 270 by iano, posted 02-26-2006 5:45 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 266 of 304 (290666)
02-26-2006 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by lfen
02-26-2006 5:24 PM


Re: Meekness, majesty, manhood & deity
What if it's the simple truth?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by lfen, posted 02-26-2006 5:24 PM lfen has replied

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 Message 268 by lfen, posted 02-26-2006 5:40 PM Faith has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17815
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 267 of 304 (290668)
02-26-2006 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by iano
02-26-2006 5:11 PM


Re: Meekness, majesty, manhood & deity
To describe evil as an absence is highly questionable. After all the whole distinction between sins of comission and omission is that the one represents actively doing something wrong while the other is failing to do something.
Another thing you need to understand is that simply sa that God did something and say that whatever God does is good does not make it good.
The problem with the sentence you attribute to Juesus is not the "do unto others..." although it is neither original to him, not entirely free of problems. The problem for me is "love God". How can I love someone or something I don't know at all. If Gid is the monster that some writings depict then I not only could not but should not love Him
quote:
In order for this to hold water you would have to suppose that God couldn't create a free-willed being who was not biased to chose one way or the other but who made their own decisions.
If God knows the future then it would be logically impossible to create a being without knowing how it would choose.
quote:
And if he could do so, simple foreknowledge as to what choice that person would make, if not influencing the choice, is little reason to lay any responsibility at Gods feet for the choice taken. If man hadn't taken that choice we would be all grumbling that he didn't give us free will (well we wouldn't actually, seeing as there would have been no sin in us)
Since I am not arguing on the basis of simple foreknowledge thje first sentence is a strawman. The second is contrary to your own religion which would hold that if Adam had not fell humans would be sinless and the grumbling you refer to is a sin. Nor is it clear that free will is an issue at all.
quote:
I think your argument is limited by the confines of the human experience.
And you are incorrect to think so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by iano, posted 02-26-2006 5:11 PM iano has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4667 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 268 of 304 (290670)
02-26-2006 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Faith
02-26-2006 5:32 PM


Re: Meekness, majesty, manhood & deity
It by no means appears to me to be a simple truth that questioning you is the perverse sin of questioning God.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Faith, posted 02-26-2006 5:32 PM Faith has replied

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 Message 269 by Faith, posted 02-26-2006 5:44 PM lfen has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 269 of 304 (290671)
02-26-2006 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by lfen
02-26-2006 5:40 PM


Re: Meekness, majesty, manhood & deity
It by no means appears to me to be a simple truth that questioning you is the perverse sin of questioning God.
But it's only your own idea that you are questioning me when you are really questioning God. You simply deny God. I don't mind you questioning me. And besides, as Iano said, questioning God is expected anyway. There are answers to be had. But it is wrong to question God nevertheless. Only that's something you can know only when you know He really is who He is.
This message has been edited by Faith, 02-26-2006 05:44 PM

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 Message 275 by ReverendDG, posted 02-26-2006 6:03 PM Faith has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 270 of 304 (290674)
02-26-2006 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by Faith
02-26-2006 5:26 PM


Re: Meekness, majesty, manhood & deity
My church is good but has some failings given its evangelical title. Paul is great at building his argument from both the positive and the negative. Not so Hillside Evangelical Church. The negative side of the argument is virtually ignored (both with respect for ourselves but more importantly with respect to getting butts of seats and telling the lost). And it frustrates the heck out of me.
Iano...Elder. Chortle I'm a tosser Faith. Strong on browbeating folk into the kingdom and little else. As a boss once told me in the secular world: "Your a square shape and my job is to chip off some of those corners so that you roll little better"
The Lord has a veritable mountain to climb with me in that respect.
And please continue to pray for me. Anybody who tries to witness on the internet is in the devil's territory and we're all weak.
Its as tangible as can be, ain't it? There's always the day we meet to look forward to in anycase. Give me a "good and faithful servant" to a Potm anyday

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Faith, posted 02-26-2006 5:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Faith, posted 02-26-2006 5:52 PM iano has replied

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