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Author Topic:   Is the concept of The Fall reasonable?
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 286 of 304 (290817)
02-27-2006 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by iano
02-27-2006 8:16 AM


Re: Meekness, majesty, manhood & deity
Glad you think so RR. Much to my chagrin I must admit deriving the idea from another far more brilliant than me...whose sandals I am unworthy to untie
Who might that be?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by iano, posted 02-27-2006 8:16 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by iano, posted 02-27-2006 8:26 AM robinrohan has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 287 of 304 (290820)
02-27-2006 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by robinrohan
02-27-2006 8:19 AM


Re: Meekness, majesty, manhood & deity
The one who pointed to himself as the way, truth and life.
As CS Lewis argued:
Jesus was either deranged when he said this (although his words don't strike one generally as being those of a deranged person)
Or he was telling folk a tremdous lie. (again his words and actions are not consistant with bare faced liar)
Or he was telling the simple truth
Deluded, liar, God. They are the options. He didn't leave open the option of being simply taken for a great moral teacher. He didn't intend to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by robinrohan, posted 02-27-2006 8:19 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by robinrohan, posted 02-27-2006 8:29 AM iano has replied
 Message 292 by ramoss, posted 02-27-2006 11:15 AM iano has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 288 of 304 (290821)
02-27-2006 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by iano
02-27-2006 8:26 AM


Re: Meekness, majesty, manhood & deity
I'm talking about the trope you came up with--God taking the witness stand. That's what I thought was vividly expressed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by iano, posted 02-27-2006 8:26 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by iano, posted 02-27-2006 8:39 AM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 290 by Faith, posted 02-27-2006 8:57 AM robinrohan has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 289 of 304 (290823)
02-27-2006 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by robinrohan
02-27-2006 8:29 AM


Re: Meekness, majesty, manhood & deity
Call it a team effort. I think about him and who he is and in so doing, the thought of people questioning him struck me as sadly amusing.
Having said that, my short life in him to date hasn't given me much cause to question him myself. I don't presume it will always be so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by robinrohan, posted 02-27-2006 8:29 AM robinrohan has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 290 of 304 (290829)
02-27-2006 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by robinrohan
02-27-2006 8:29 AM


Re: Meekness, majesty, manhood & deity
I'm talking about the trope you came up with--God taking the witness stand. That's what I thought was vividly expressed.
Isn't that C.S. Lewis' book, "God in the Dock?"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by robinrohan, posted 02-27-2006 8:29 AM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by iano, posted 02-27-2006 9:25 AM Faith has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 291 of 304 (290832)
02-27-2006 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by Faith
02-27-2006 8:57 AM


Re: Meekness, majesty, manhood & deity
Isn't that C.S. Lewis' book, "God in the Dock?"
And I didn't even get a lousy PotM - sheesh

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Faith, posted 02-27-2006 8:57 AM Faith has not replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 602 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 292 of 304 (290845)
02-27-2006 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by iano
02-27-2006 8:26 AM


Re: Meekness, majesty, manhood & deity
That , of course, is the logical fallacy of the false dicomtomy.
There are other options.
1) Jesus never said that, but he is only reported by others to have said that.
2) The words have been changed slightly from the original, and therefore the context was changed.
3) The meaning is NOT what the traditional Christian interpretation is, but rather more gnostic.
There are a number of other possiblities that come into mind also. So, your entire statement is based on trying to restrict the possiblities.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by iano, posted 02-27-2006 8:26 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by iano, posted 02-27-2006 11:25 AM ramoss has not replied
 Message 298 by lfen, posted 02-27-2006 1:40 PM ramoss has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 293 of 304 (290847)
02-27-2006 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 292 by ramoss
02-27-2006 11:15 AM


Re: Meekness, majesty, manhood & deity
True...do I get any marks for trying?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by ramoss, posted 02-27-2006 11:15 AM ramoss has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 294 of 304 (290848)
02-27-2006 11:33 AM


So far no one has shown any evidence that the concept of the Fall is reasonable.
In these last few posts does anyone have anything to show that the concept of the Fall is reasonable or even included anywhere in the Bible?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by Faith, posted 02-27-2006 1:19 PM jar has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 295 of 304 (290887)
02-27-2006 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by jar
02-27-2006 11:33 AM


Re: So far no one has shown any evidence that the concept of the Fall is reasonable.
As usual the evidence has bitten you in the ass more than once but apparently you are numb in that region as you never seem to notice.
Its reasonableness is its ability to explain human suffering in the context of the good God of the Bible. You can't believe in a good God and in the bloody natural world of evolution at the same time, treating such suffering as normal. Only an evil God or an indifferent God would have created such a world.
This message has been edited by Faith, 02-27-2006 01:19 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by jar, posted 02-27-2006 11:33 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by jar, posted 02-27-2006 1:24 PM Faith has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 296 of 304 (290889)
02-27-2006 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Faith
02-27-2006 1:19 PM


Re: So far no one has shown any evidence that the concept of the Fall is reasonable.
You can't believe in a good God and in the bloody natural world of evolution at the same time, treating such suffering as normal. Only an evil God or an indifferent God would have created such a world.
So some have asserted. But as of yet, no one has provided any support for that assertion.
Only 4 posts left. Care to try?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Faith, posted 02-27-2006 1:19 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by Faith, posted 02-27-2006 1:36 PM jar has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 297 of 304 (290892)
02-27-2006 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by jar
02-27-2006 1:24 PM


As usual, the case HAS been made -- but ignored
Oh for heaven's sake, it's obvious jar, simple logic.
1) Suffering and death are evil.
2) Any God who would create living things to suffer and die is an evil or indifferent God.
3) Anyone who says that suffering and death are just normal or even a good thing is inhumane, callous or just isn't thinking.
4) Evolution builds on, even depends on, the suffering and death of living things.
5) The God of the Bible is said to be good, to be merciful.
6) That God therefore cannot have created life to suffer and die.
7) The Fall however, which explains it through the sin of human beings acting in free will, accounts for it well, and exonerates God.
8) Those who believe in God AND in evolution are believing in a contradiction, unless they are willing to believe in an evil, absent or indifferent Creator.
This message has been edited by Faith, 02-27-2006 01:36 PM
This message has been edited by Faith, 02-27-2006 01:38 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by jar, posted 02-27-2006 1:24 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by jar, posted 02-27-2006 1:49 PM Faith has replied
 Message 301 by lfen, posted 02-27-2006 1:52 PM Faith has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4668 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 298 of 304 (290893)
02-27-2006 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by ramoss
02-27-2006 11:15 AM


Re: Meekness, majesty, manhood & deity
There are a number of other possiblities that come into mind also. So, your entire statement is based on trying to restrict the possiblities.
Iano stated that he was following C.S. Lewis's argument. Lewis was a spinmeister. He was well educated. I forget now which of his works I was reading but he knew that virgin births were a very common feature of near eastern religions. He gave a disingenuous explanation that these had been "good dreams" God had sent to humanity to prepare them for the Christian story.
I gave up reading Lewis in disgust and have never bothered with him again. The restricting of possibilities is a common Christian rhetorical strategy. In some cases it can be forgiven as due to ignorance but Lewis had to know what he was doing and deliberately went ahead and did it anyway. If a religion requires such obvious invalid manipulations to make it's case it seems like it's adherents don't really trust or believe.
I was in high school at the time. Lewis though did contribute significantly to my skepticism about Christianity. It would be funny if his argument so cleverly meant to deceive about near eastern religious influences on the development of Christianity had the opposite effect of making me so disgusted with the things Christians would stoop to say to manipulate support for their religion that it ended up by driving me from the church. But it was only one more absurd straw on the camel's back. I don't recall now if it was the last straw or not.
lfen
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by ramoss, posted 02-27-2006 11:15 AM ramoss has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 299 of 304 (290895)
02-27-2006 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by lfen
02-27-2006 1:40 PM


Re: Meekness, majesty, manhood & deity
Iano stated that he was following C.S. Lewis's argument. Lewis was a spinmeister. He was well educated. I forget now which of his works I was reading but he knew that virgin births were a very common feature of near eastern religions. He gave a disingenuous explanation that these had been "good dreams" God had sent to humanity to prepare them for the Christian story.
There was nothing disingenuous about it. Lewis was a professor of literature at Oxford, and knew fiction from reality. The "virgin births" were fiction and most not virgin anyway, as some "god" would impregnate a girl the normal human way. His idea was rather brilliant really. Humanity has always had "inklings" of the truly true, really real, historically actual Grand Miracle of the life and death of a real living human Savior born of a virgin, promised all the way back in Eden, so even our myths and legends contain hints of it.
This message has been edited by Faith, 02-27-2006 01:50 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by lfen, posted 02-27-2006 1:40 PM lfen has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 300 of 304 (290896)
02-27-2006 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by Faith
02-27-2006 1:36 PM


Re: So far no one has shown any evidence that the concept of the Fall is reasonable.
1) Suffering and death are evil.
Not really.
2) Any God who would create living things to suffer and die is an evil or indifferent God.
Well, if GOD created this universe he certainly created both suffering and death. And so far no one has shown any evidence that the world was not created with both suffering and death.
3) Anyone who says that suffering and death are just normal or even a good thing is inhumane, callous or just isn't thinking.
Not really. Is it callous to eat a salad? Is it callous to see suffering and try to prevent it?
4) Evolution builds on, even depends on, the suffering and death of living things.
Not true. Evolution has nothing to do with either. Evolution is simply a statement of what did happen. It's history, reality.
5) The God of the Bible is said to be good, to be merciful.
Yes. Correct. Also has nothing to do with the issue.
7) The Fall however, which explains it through the sin of human beings acting in free will, accounts for it well, and exonerates God.
ROTFLMAO
I imagine GOD is very glad we exonerated Her. But then there is no Biblical support for the Fall in the first place.
8) Those who believe in God AND in evolution are believing in a contradiction, unless they are willing to believe in an evil, absent or indifferent Creator.
So you continue to assert. But they do NOT believe in a whimpy, pitiful, ignorant GOD who is incapable of creating something that works.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Faith, posted 02-27-2006 1:36 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by Faith, posted 02-27-2006 1:52 PM jar has not replied

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