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Author Topic:   Heretics - Reverend Carlton Pearson
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 31 of 50 (366461)
11-28-2006 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by attssyf
11-28-2006 5:54 AM


Fair is Foul and Foul is Fair
If God exists, does He allow us to rant at Him? I would certainly think so. God gave everyone of us a brain, IMB, and expects us to question Him.
attssyf writes:
If God can predict the choices people make, then he choses to put you on the earth at a certain time, knowing how you will act, and then punishes and rewards you.(THE... GAME WAS RIGGED!)
So you are angry that God knows stuff that could prevent bad consequences for you and humanity yet is not involved? How do we not know that God expects us to collectively learn from the hand we were dealt in life? Why do we have it in us to question a supposedly Omnipotant and all knowing Being?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by attssyf, posted 11-28-2006 5:54 AM attssyf has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 32 of 50 (366473)
11-28-2006 9:34 AM


Gospel Of Inclusion Remix
AgapePress) - A Pentecostal bishop in Oklahoma continues to stir controversy with his teaching that Jesus Christ has saved everyone, regardless whether they accept Christ as their Savior.
Carlton Pearson has been pastor of the Higher Dimensions Family Church in Tulsa for more than 20 years. He is presiding bishop of the Azusa Interdenominational Fellowship of Christian Churches and Ministries, Inc., which includes over 500 churches and ministries. And he has authored a variety of books and was even nominated for a Dove Award at one time.
But the embattled, high-energy preacher has raised eyebrows among his fellow evangelicals recently for preaching what he calls the "gospel of inclusion." Associated Press says other prominent ministers have denounced him for teaching that Jesus has saved everyone -- both believers and unbelievers. He teaches that sincere people who do not directly acknowledge Christ -- such as Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and Unitarians -- will go to heaven. Consequently, according to Pearson, conversion is unnecessary.
Several points I might elaborate:
  • Not acknowledging Christ is not the same as rejecting Him.
  • IF God exists, our sincerity will be seen by Him
  • IMB, God draws all men (and women) unto Himself.
    Here is a contrary point of view to the inclusion Gospel.
    An excerpt:
    Take-A-Stand writes:
    Consider God becoming a man and dying on the cross so we can have forgiveness and eternal life in Heaven. Consider people over the centuries either accepting or rejecting God's love. Now, consider all those who died and suffered as martyrs (and still do!) for their faith in Christ. Then, imagine the end of time, judgment day, all of mankind standing before God. He shrugs His shoulders and says, "Oh, all right ...ya'll come on in!"
    Edited by Phat, : add

  • Replies to this message:
     Message 34 by kuresu, posted 11-28-2006 8:22 PM Phat has replied

      
    kuresu
    Member (Idle past 2512 days)
    Posts: 2544
    From: boulder, colorado
    Joined: 03-24-2006


    Message 33 of 50 (366623)
    11-28-2006 8:16 PM
    Reply to: Message 29 by Hyroglyphx
    11-27-2006 9:05 PM


    ummm. . .
    If He is all-powerful then He can offer freewill to His creation. How does that make Him culpable? Are your parents at fault when you do wrong because, technically, they made you?
    are you suggesting parents are all--powerful? Or all-knowing? or something that they're not? your analogy is useless.
    Here's the problem.
    God created everything. God is all-knowing (from what I hear). He knows what will happen. If you get hurt, maimed, or killed, God knew this would happen. In our law system, that's implied consent. If you don't stop a murder that you know will help (or at least make some sort of attempt at such), you are also culpable. And it makes sense. (which I can add on to, should someone desire to see the reason)
    So if God knew the Rock would fall, and he did nothing to help prevent injury, he is partially culpable.
    Or, he is totally culpable, because if he created everything, he created that rock, he created the man who got hurt, and he created the land the rock was sitting on that led to the eventual injury. In a way, he created the event. Then he is totally culpable.
    I think (though could be quite wrong) that this is what causes many people to question just what it is God is trying to do. And it causes many of those questioners to lose their faith.

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    This message is a reply to:
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    Replies to this message:
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     Message 39 by Phat, posted 11-30-2006 7:46 PM kuresu has replied

      
    kuresu
    Member (Idle past 2512 days)
    Posts: 2544
    From: boulder, colorado
    Joined: 03-24-2006


    Message 34 of 50 (366629)
    11-28-2006 8:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 32 by Phat
    11-28-2006 9:34 AM


    Re: Gospel Of Inclusion Remix
    Then, imagine the end of time, judgment day, all of mankind standing before God. He shrugs His shoulders and says, "Oh, all right ...ya'll come on in!
    I'd have a great big laugh at the "you mean I died for nothing!?" looks they would have. And the looks of "so I treated them like shit, and I was wrong, because they ended up in here. damn, how am I going to apologize?". And then at those who will abandon God at that point. Now that's the perfect time to become an atheist--after you're in heaven.
    And who's to say all those martys had it right? I mean, come on, if we don't even know what God's plan is for us, then how can we possibly imagine what his plan is for heaven-admittance? It also has the benefit of removing quite a bit of hatred and destruction and forced conversions.

    Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 32 by Phat, posted 11-28-2006 9:34 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 35 by Phat, posted 11-29-2006 3:29 AM kuresu has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 35 of 50 (366721)
    11-29-2006 3:29 AM
    Reply to: Message 34 by kuresu
    11-28-2006 8:22 PM


    Re: Gospel Of Inclusion Remix
    So you would gloat---in Heaven?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 34 by kuresu, posted 11-28-2006 8:22 PM kuresu has replied

    Replies to this message:
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    attssyf
    Inactive Member


    Message 36 of 50 (366729)
    11-29-2006 5:07 AM
    Reply to: Message 31 by Phat
    11-28-2006 8:41 AM


    Re: Fair is Foul and Foul is Fair
    So you are angry that God knows stuff that could prevent bad consequences for you and humanity yet is not involved?
    No, I'm an atheist. I don't believe in God.
    The overall thrust of my argument has been about how the stories of the Bible suggests a limited God, but that social pressures within churches make it very tricky for people to express such ideas.
    As examples, I've tried to show that certain views of God as an infinite being lead to logical problems, like the problem of determinism (no free will if god has perfect foreknowledge) and the problem of God being responsible for all evil (because he is the knowing cause for everything, and some things are evil). I believe that the logical consequences of an omnipotent and omniscient creator are lack of free will and a God who knowingly creates evil.
    These problems melt away if you accept a view of God as of a lesser power; powerful, but not infinite. That would allow humans more space for free will and to have a God who was purely loving. It also seems to me to be more in tune with the bible, where God is portrayed as being changeable, fallible, and less than omniscient.
    The thing that interests me is the way churches and other religious institutions affect the way theology is spread and develops.
    Why do we have it in us to question a supposedly Omnipotant and all knowing Being?
    It's really a matter of questioning our own human descriptions of the divine. I'm talking about questioning those who claim authority over theology; ancients like the human writers of the gospel, St Paul, and Thomas Aquinas, or moderns like priest or fellow church members.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 31 by Phat, posted 11-28-2006 8:41 AM Phat has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 43 by anastasia, posted 12-05-2006 3:06 PM attssyf has replied

      
    attssyf
    Inactive Member


    Message 37 of 50 (366731)
    11-29-2006 5:34 AM
    Reply to: Message 33 by kuresu
    11-28-2006 8:16 PM


    I think (though could be quite wrong) that this is what causes many people to question just what it is God is trying to do. And it causes many of those questioners to lose their faith.
    I think this is exactly right; when people are told to believe exactly this, and that thing has flaws, there's really nowhere else to go except to disbelieve the whole shooting match.
    As an illustrative example, consider something like the doctrine of the trinity. For some, the trinity simply seems a badly-argued piece of logic, the theological equivalent of the equation '3 = 1'.
    Now, what happens if you're not allowed to suggest that 3 =/= 1? You try to suggest something which seems more mathematically correct. You are told this is heresy, and you should not think further. But you can't help it. 3 is not 1. Given the absurdity of the original statement, and no flexibility to suggest something else, the brittle belief will snap.
    I don't want to start a discussion on the trinity; I just want to illustrate the point that inflexibility of belief, combined with intellectual honesty, creates atheists.

    This message is a reply to:
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    kuresu
    Member (Idle past 2512 days)
    Posts: 2544
    From: boulder, colorado
    Joined: 03-24-2006


    Message 38 of 50 (366844)
    11-29-2006 2:11 PM
    Reply to: Message 35 by Phat
    11-29-2006 3:29 AM


    Re: Gospel Of Inclusion Remix
    there's a difference between gloating and laughing at foolish people.
    It'd be more like when you shake your head in disbelief that someone actually did something quite stupid.
    It's kind of hard to explain in writing, i think.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 35 by Phat, posted 11-29-2006 3:29 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 39 of 50 (367190)
    11-30-2006 7:46 PM
    Reply to: Message 33 by kuresu
    11-28-2006 8:16 PM


    Who in the heck do you think you are? God??
    kuresu writes:
    Here's the problem.
    God created everything. God is all-knowing (from what I hear). He knows what will happen. If you get hurt, maimed, or killed, God knew this would happen. In our law system, that's implied consent.
    Yes. And in our justice system, we appoint the judges and we determine the laws. The problem with our ideas about God is we attempt to define His parameters and expect Him to obey our laws. It really is a mute argument, however, and I think I see where you are coming from.
    Wouldnt it be nice to be able to quietly sit and talk with od and ask Him why the heck things are the way they are? I think that the frustration that many people have with their faith is that they feel unable to talk with God---they know about God yet they don't know God.
    Carlton Pearsons inclusive gospel still allows for everyone to get the opportunity to know God. Its not as if an anonymous Deity is gonna simply save everybody and yet not relate to them.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 33 by kuresu, posted 11-28-2006 8:16 PM kuresu has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 41 by kuresu, posted 11-30-2006 8:19 PM Phat has replied

      
    Taz
    Member (Idle past 3291 days)
    Posts: 5069
    From: Zerus
    Joined: 07-18-2006


    Message 40 of 50 (367194)
    11-30-2006 8:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 35 by Phat
    11-29-2006 3:29 AM


    Re: Gospel Of Inclusion Remix
    phat writes:
    So you would gloat---in Heaven?
    Yes, I would gloat in heaven. I'd go around to every fundy that ever existed (since I have an eternity's worth of time on my hands) and laugh in their faces saying "haha, this evil gay supporting atheist made it in..."

    Place yourself on the map at http://www.frappr.com/evc
    The thread about this map can be found here.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 35 by Phat, posted 11-29-2006 3:29 AM Phat has not replied

      
    kuresu
    Member (Idle past 2512 days)
    Posts: 2544
    From: boulder, colorado
    Joined: 03-24-2006


    Message 41 of 50 (367195)
    11-30-2006 8:19 PM
    Reply to: Message 39 by Phat
    11-30-2006 7:46 PM


    Re: Who in the heck do you think you are? God??
    I'm not sure if you do.
    I'm not defining God. I'm going with the basic definition Christians have for him. I then just took it to a logical conclusion--it's all God's fault.
    It's so, so much easier being an atheist. No mind-bending required.
    (oh, and I do so happen to think I am God. Or at least, my own God )

    Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 39 by Phat, posted 11-30-2006 7:46 PM Phat has replied

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    DominionSeraph
    Member (Idle past 4754 days)
    Posts: 365
    From: on High
    Joined: 01-26-2005


    Message 42 of 50 (367206)
    11-30-2006 9:04 PM
    Reply to: Message 41 by kuresu
    11-30-2006 8:19 PM


    Re: Who in the heck do you think you are? God??
    kuresu writes:
    oh, and I do so happen to think I am God. Or at least, my own God
    And you meet all undefined parameters (post 39), so you might as well take credit for being his God, too.

    This message is a reply to:
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    anastasia
    Member (Idle past 5952 days)
    Posts: 1857
    From: Bucks County, PA
    Joined: 11-05-2006


    Message 43 of 50 (367816)
    12-05-2006 3:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 36 by attssyf
    11-29-2006 5:07 AM


    Re: Fair is Foul and Foul is Fair
    attssyf writes:
    The overall thrust of my argument has been about how the stories of the Bible suggests a limited God, but that social pressures within churches make it very tricky for people to express such ideas
    Social pressures within churches, huh? Maybe. But in my observance, no social pressure has ever caused someone to reject their own scanty Biblical 'evidence' and amateur theology, or stopped them from creating/promoting heresy, schism, cults, sects, denominations, and variations within denominations. The preachers mentioned here in this thread are evidence enough of that! The general view within Christianity of an omnipotent God is not based on what the Bible merely suggests, but the absolute utmost of human effort to reflect what the Bible actually means. It is significant that the one undisputed belief amoung christians, and the unanimous findings of Judaeism, Islam, and christianity, is a Biblical God who is omnipotent. I certainly have not felt any pressure to believe that God is less-than-divine, nor can I imagine that the idea could be attractive to many. If it were, I am sure it would have sprung up somewhere along the line
    The thing that interests me is the way churches and other religious institutions affect the way theology is spread and develops.
    I think this is backward. Theology spreads and develops within churches regardless. It is the theology which affects the church, or effects the seperation from it. You could almost say that theology came into being just to deal with people who were exerting upon the church their own pressure to follow a foreign doctrine.
    But which came first? Are churches affecting the theology, or is the theology held by a people, the church?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 36 by attssyf, posted 11-29-2006 5:07 AM attssyf has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 46 by attssyf, posted 12-05-2006 7:12 PM anastasia has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 44 of 50 (367819)
    12-05-2006 4:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 41 by kuresu
    11-30-2006 8:19 PM


    Re: Who in the heck do you think you are? God??
    kuresu writes:
    It's so, so much easier being an atheist. No mind-bending required.
    More like no will bending required, I would think. People dont like the idea that they are unable or incapable of imagining their individual and collective destinies.
    As far as being God, that attitude is typical of human nature---especially those who reject any authority in their lives save themselves.
    I suppose that its better than being a bunch of mindless sheeple.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 41 by kuresu, posted 11-30-2006 8:19 PM kuresu has not replied

      
    anastasia
    Member (Idle past 5952 days)
    Posts: 1857
    From: Bucks County, PA
    Joined: 11-05-2006


    Message 45 of 50 (367825)
    12-05-2006 5:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 41 by kuresu
    11-30-2006 8:19 PM


    Re: Who in the heck do you think you are? God??
    kuresu writes:
    I'm not defining God. I'm going with the basic definition Christians have for him. I then just took it to a logical conclusion--it's all God's fault.
    For your added thought pleasure, as well as attssyf's, I will refer you to Genesis 3. Here you will find an answer to what you think you know about christian mind-bending. Or at least, it will help you discover who threw the rock. The answer is; we did. Through free-will we let sin come into the world. Here is what Genesis says;
    Cursed be the ground because of you; in toil shall you eat of it all the days of your life.
    Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to you, and you shall eat the plants of the field.
    In the sweat of your brow you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, since out of it you were taken; for dust you are and unto dust you shall return.
    The paradise was no more. Of course you may regard this in any fashion that suits you, but at least you know there is an answer out there.

    This message is a reply to:
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