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Author Topic:   Who can be saved? A Christian perspective
GDR
Member
Posts: 4279
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 391 of 457 (641474)
11-19-2011 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 389 by New Cat's Eye
11-19-2011 2:28 PM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
CS writes:

Are you taking that to mean that the nations were seperated from other nations, but the nations as a whole were kept together? And that's why you can't split up the group of christians into some being sheep and some being goats?

No. I assume that all nations means all people and the people will be separated regardless of nationality.

I think this is more a discussion of semantics than it is about belief.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 389 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-19-2011 2:28 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5625
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 392 of 457 (641483)
11-19-2011 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 369 by jar
11-18-2011 11:09 AM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
Hi jar,

jar writes:

The point is that all mankind is charged to feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, comfort the sorrowful, clothe the naked, teach the children, heal the sick, protect the helpless.

Could you give me the text that supports that assertion?

And while you are at it explain what Paul meant when he said:

quote:
2 Thessaloians 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

3:11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.

3:12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.


God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by jar, posted 11-18-2011 11:09 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by jar, posted 11-19-2011 5:37 PM ICANT has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 393 of 457 (641486)
11-19-2011 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by ICANT
11-19-2011 5:25 PM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
I have provided them, sorry if you missed them.

But it is a pretty basic Christian position, unfortunately one that seems to go unnoticed particularly by many that claim to be pastors.

In fact YOU provided one in your quote from Thessalonians. We are commanded to work, to do works.

But Jesus says it even better in Matt 25.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by ICANT, posted 11-19-2011 5:25 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 396 by ICANT, posted 11-19-2011 6:38 PM jar has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5625
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 394 of 457 (641491)
11-19-2011 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 389 by New Cat's Eye
11-19-2011 2:28 PM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
Hi CS,

Catholic Scientist writes:

Yes, but then they're seperated.

Yes the nations are separated by nations not the people separated.

Catholic Scientist writes:

Are you taking that to mean that the nations were seperated from other nations, but the nations as a whole were kept together? And that's why you can't split up the group of christians into some being sheep and some being goats?

Yes the text says the nations are separated.

The people of the sheep nations are the only people that will be afforded a second chance.

They will be afforded that second chance because they happened to live in a country that has helped the descendants of Isaac due to the promise God made to Abraham.

The judgment of the nations will take place when Jesus comes riding on a white horse at the end of the reign of the anti-christ just prior to Jesus setting up His earthly kingdom. The sheep nations will be allowed to go into the 1000 year reign of Christ.

The problem enters with the word righteous, as it is assumed that is talking about people who have been born again.

At the judgment of the nations there will not be 1 person who has been born again. Those will all be gone prior to battle in which the anti-christ is overcome and cast into the lake of fire.

So the judgment of the nations is just that, a judgment of nations.

The nations who have helped the descendants of Isaac will be the sheep nations and those who have tried to destroy the descendants of Isaac will be the goat nations.

But everyone is allowed to believe anything they desire to believe.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 389 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-19-2011 2:28 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 395 by jar, posted 11-19-2011 5:55 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 395 of 457 (641492)
11-19-2011 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by ICANT
11-19-2011 5:51 PM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
ICANT writes:

The problem enters with the word righteous, as it is assumed that is talking about people who have been born again.

Only the GOATs make that assumption.

What righteous means is really clearly stated in the passage, it is those that feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, comfort the sorrowful, shelter the homeless.

Being Born Again is just a con job by those who want to market cheap worthless promises.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by ICANT, posted 11-19-2011 5:51 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5625
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 396 of 457 (641502)
11-19-2011 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 393 by jar
11-19-2011 5:37 PM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
Hi jar,

jar writes:

I have provided them, sorry if you missed them.

That is very funny.

The phrase 'feed the hungry' does not exist in the Bible.
The phrase 'shelter the homeless' does not exist in the Bible.
The phrase 'comfort the sorrowful' does not exist in the Bible.
The phrase 'clothe the naked' does not exist in the Bible.
The phrase 'teach the children' appears 2 time in the Bible.

quote:
Leviticus 10:11 And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.
2 Samuel 1:18 (Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the book of Jasher.)

Both are charges to Israel.

The phrase 'heal the sick' this phrase is in the Bible 3 times.

quote:
Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Luke 9:2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.
Command to the Apostles.

quote:
Luke 10:9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
Command to the seventy sent out.

The phrase 'protect the helpless' does not appear in the Bible.

Now if your search engine is better than mine would you please present the scripture texts that support your assertion, as the ones I find does not support your assertion.

jar writes:

In fact YOU provided one in your quote from Thessalonians. We are commanded to work, to do works.

Well no that verse teaches that if a man don't work he don't eat.

No one is told to supply his needs in fact the non worker is told to go to work and eat his own bread that does not mean I am supposed to supply the bread and oven for him/her to cook it in.

Now don't get me wrong I believe we are supposed to take care of our own and we practice that in the church I pastor. Not one member goes lacking of anything they need.

If a person is hungry and I give him/her a mess of fish they have fish to eat one time. But if I teach him/her how to fish they can have fish many times.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by jar, posted 11-19-2011 5:37 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 397 by jar, posted 11-19-2011 7:13 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 397 of 457 (641506)
11-19-2011 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 396 by ICANT
11-19-2011 6:38 PM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
ICANT writes:

Now don't get me wrong I believe we are supposed to take care of our own and we practice that in the church I pastor. Not one member goes lacking of anything they need.

And that is the position of a GOAT.

You think you are to take care of your own. That is exactly what a GOAT will say.

Read Matthew 25.

Have you ever read the Great Commandment?

Have you actually ever read the Bible?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by ICANT, posted 11-19-2011 6:38 PM ICANT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 398 by Phat, posted 11-19-2011 7:25 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9757
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 398 of 457 (641508)
11-19-2011 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 397 by jar
11-19-2011 7:13 PM


Least of these and yeast of Pharisees
jar writes:

Have you actually ever read the Bible?

Thats kinda presumptuous to say to I CANT...we know he reads the Bible. Not everyone interprets it as you do, jar. I will agree with you that we are supposed to help everyone, not just fellow believers...but you can hand out food to poor folk for years and never see them change.

In contrast, you can help a family get back on their feet and see the fruits of their progress in life.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 397 by jar, posted 11-19-2011 7:13 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 399 by jar, posted 11-19-2011 7:38 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 399 of 457 (641509)
11-19-2011 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 398 by Phat
11-19-2011 7:25 PM


Re: Least of these and yeast of Pharisees
It is irrelevant whether they change or not; the charge is to do it.

You may think he reads the Bible, but what most folk seem to consider "reading the Bible" are silly Bible Study classes where quotes are taken out of context and even the crap called "proof texts" are used.

Reading the Bible is starting at page one and reading the whole thing, and actually paying attention to what it really says; seeing the contradictions, errors, falsehoods, fables, fantasy, propaganda, marketing and epic stories.

It means reading the Bible just like you would any other collection of literature.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 398 by Phat, posted 11-19-2011 7:25 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 400 by bluescat48, posted 11-19-2011 9:47 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 1720 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 400 of 457 (641513)
11-19-2011 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 399 by jar
11-19-2011 7:38 PM


Re: Least of these and yeast of Pharisees
I totally agree with you method of Bible reading. I wonder how many here have ever done that?

Edited by bluescat48, : No reason given.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 399 by jar, posted 11-19-2011 7:38 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 401 of 457 (641515)
11-19-2011 10:17 PM


Summary
No one honestly knows who will be saved, but we can say a few things about what will be required.

First, it will not matter whether or not someone is a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Taoist, Animist, Diest, Atheist, Satanist, Agnostic, a follower of the Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Germanic, Norse Gods, or of Confucius or Mencius.

What you believe will be totally irrelevant.

What you profess will be totally irrelevant.

What Club you belong to will be totally irrelevant.

Nonsense like "Being Born Again", getting "Saved", "Being touched by the Holy Spirit" are nothing more than marketing tactics; prattle of the Carny Snake Oil salesman.

You will though be judged on what you did during your life, did you feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, comfort the sorrowful, teach the children, protect the helpless, clothe the naked.

It's likely we will all be judged to have failed.

If we are then pardoned it will be through God's Grace, but we will never know that decision until after we have died and been tried.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 1199 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 402 of 457 (641524)
11-20-2011 2:19 AM


The "WHY?" factor rules.
The question of being saved is still incoherent, because we do not know the purpose of creation. In fact this is the primal and only reason for a Messiah. The universe was created in wisdom - but we do not know WHY!
    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 403 of 457 (641529)
11-20-2011 3:24 AM


Yes the nations are separated by nations not the people separated.

Why?

You should make a thread for this because this one's in summation mode.

Yes the text says the nations are separated.

The people of the sheep nations are the only people that will be afforded a second chance.

They will be afforded that second chance because they happened to live in a country that has helped the descendants of Isaac due to the promise God made to Abraham.

Wow. That's fucking retarded.

You're saying that Jesus' message was that salvation is determine by the nation you're born in.

You've eiehter lost your mind, or never had one. Or are lying.

I'm actually suspecting malicious intent, so go back to hell, demon.

The judgment of the nations will take place when Jesus comes riding on a white horse at the end of the reign of the anti-christ just prior to Jesus setting up His earthly kingdom. The sheep nations will be allowed to go into the 1000 year reign of Christ.

The problem enters with the word righteous, as it is assumed that is talking about people who have been born again.

At the judgment of the nations there will not be 1 person who has been born again. Those will all be gone prior to battle in which the anti-christ is overcome and cast into the lake of fire.

So the judgment of the nations is just that, a judgment of nations.

The nations who have helped the descendants of Isaac will be the sheep nations and those who have tried to destroy the descendants of Isaac will be the goat nations.

That'd actually make a pretty sweet episode for a Contantine sequal, or something. (seriously, though, have you seen that movie yet? its pretty rad, I think you'd like it)

Anyways, that's just some bullshit you made up... and as you say:

But everyone is allowed to believe anything they desire to believe.

And your's are pretty colorful, indeed. You need cleansing.

God Bless,

Fuck off.

How dare you, vile one!


  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9757
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 404 of 457 (717238)
01-25-2014 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by jar
01-10-2005 10:00 PM


Re: Holy Spirit
jar writes:

People are saved by Grace. Period. It has NOTHING to do with their beliefs, it is not conditional, it is not tied to profession. It was a gift freely given.

It was not given to Christians, or Jews. It was given to mankind. Everyone.

But there is one potential gottcha. That gottcha is your behavior. You can screw things up. You can throw away the gift freely given.

I've been reading about Anselm What it is to sin, and to make satisfaction for sin. and note that he speaks of obligation in this life.
quote:
This is the debt which man and angel owe to God, and no one who pays this debt commits sin; but every one who does not pay it sins. This is justice, or uprightness of will, which makes a being just or upright in heart, that is, in will; and this is the sole and complete debt of honor which we owe to God, and which God requires of us. For it is such a will only, when it can be exercised, that does works pleasing to God; and when this will cannot be exercised, it is pleasing of itself alone, since without it no work is acceptable. He who does not render this honor which is due to God, robs God of his own and dishonors him; and this is sin. Moreover, so long as he does not restore what he has taken away, he remains in fault; and it will not suffice merely to restore what has been taken away, but, considering the contempt offered, he ought to restore more than he took away. For as one who imperils another's safety does not enough by merely restoring his safety, without making some compensation for the anguish incurred; so he who violates another's honor does not enough by merely rendering honor again, but must, according to the extent of the injury done, make restoration in some way satisfactory to the person whom he has dishonored. We must also observe that when any one pays what he has unjustly taken away, he ought to give something which could not have been demanded of him, had he not stolen what belonged to another. So then, every one who sins ought to pay back the honor of which he has robbed God; and this is the satisfaction which every sinner owes to God.

so if we dont try and do our best to live an honorable life, we screw up the gift freely given?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by jar, posted 01-10-2005 10:00 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9757
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 405 of 457 (812004)
06-14-2017 5:49 AM


jar writes:

IMHO, as a Christian, anyone can be saved whether or not they acknowledge or profess a belief in Jesus or even GOD. In fact, even if they deny the existence of GOD they can and will likely be saved.

To start with, the question arises as to what we are saved from and also what for.

ramoss writes:

From a Jewish perspective, the concept of Salvation is for this world, not the next one, so the Christian concept of 'being saved' is absent and unneeded.
From an athiestic point of view, it is a load of superstion , based on belief in an imaginary friend.

We have argued and discussed these concepts for quite some time now. One side believes that what a person actually does is what counts---belief or no belief. I have no problem with this philosophy, except that the idea that Jesus died for us is minimalized and trivialized.

jar introduces ringos favorite go-to scripture. Matthew 25.

jar writes:

So the question is, "Do you have to acknowledge GOD or even believe in GOD to Love GOD?"

IMHO and according to the Bible, the answer is "No. You can love GOD without acknowledging GOD or even if you deny GOD's very existence."

If you examine Matthew 25 31:46, it is pretty clear what is needed to love GOD.

31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

And when you read that, there is nothing about professing GOD or Jesus, nothing about being a Jew or Christian, nothing about being religious. In fact, many who profess a belief in Jesus, who are good Christians, Jews or Muslims, will certainly be Goats and not sheep while many atheists and agnostics will certainly be sheep and not goats.

For starters, everlasting punishment sounds a bit extreme. To me, were I God, simply making the goats cease to exist would be much fairer than handing them eternal punishment!

jar writes:

I cannot imagine a worse hell than sitting around singing praises for eternity. Puppy love is fine when you're a pre-teen but I have to believe that an afterlife must be something with a little more substance to it.

I know! You would likely be quite content if GOD never actually showed up but rather watched behind the curtain like a proud father as humanity grew up and began exploring new planets and solar systems. For some reason you minimize the possibility of a relationship with God. Often you ask how it can be proven. My question to you is that even if it could be proven would you have need of it?

jar writes:

... A being that could think this universe into existence, that could intuitively understand the relationship between gravity and the other forces, is not someone who would get his nose out of joint because someone says he doesn't exist. GOD is not small and petty, he is not a pimply faced teenager mooning because his love isn't returned. He did not create this universe for mankind, we are only a very recent addition, and it is only our egocentric nature that makes us believe we are anything special.

As to my belief that many Jews, Christians and Muslims will not be saved, I think the cleansing of the temple was a pretty good sign. Even Jesus death and resurection support that idea. Afterall, it was not the atheists and agnostics that were threatened by his life and ministry, but the franchise owners themselves.

While I agree with much of your criticism of organized religion, I think you carry it a bit too far when you even include the Apostle Paul as "one of the original franchise owners"... Talk about slaying sacred cows!

jar writes:

Is Enlightenment the same for each individual?

Actually a very good question to ask. Must Protestant Christianity involve a one size fits all approach?
jar writes:

Here is a section from the 1979 BCP that I believe covers the subject well.

All glory be to thee, Almighty God, our heavenly Father, for
that thou, of thy tender mercy, didst give thine only Son Jesus
Christ to suffer death upon the cross for our redemption; who
made there, by his one oblation of himself once offered, a full,
perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, and satisfaction, for
the sins of the whole world; and did institute, and in his holy
Gospel command us to continue, a perpetual memory of that
his precious death and sacrifice, until his coming again.

The really important part is "... by his one oblation of himself once offered, a full, perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, and satisfaction, for the sins of the whole world...".

For the sins of the whole world. Not for the sins of christians. Not for the sins of believers. Not for the sins of the few, but for the sins of the whole world.

Christ died for the sins of the world. Everyone. All of us, sinner and saint, believer and non-believer.

Just as someone's belief in the existence or non-existence of GOD has no bearing on whether or not GOD exists, belief has no bearing on the fact that Christ died for the forgivness of our sins. Christ died for those who believe in him, and those who do not.

Actually a supportable argument. Why, however, do you see GOD as eternally unknowable? Does not the idea that Jesus is the way to God allow us amoebas to glimpse insight into a Being far superior to ourselves?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

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