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Author Topic:   Jar's belief statement- Part 2
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 1 of 250 (333187)
07-19-2006 3:43 AM


As per Admin Asgara's request to start a new thread to avoid the earlier straying from the "Leftist Media" topic and per my own desire to address Faith's responses, I am opening this thread.
I would like to address this particular post by Faith specifically:
My criticism is that it's a blatant transparent misrepresentation of the Bible, a blasphemous denigration of God as a "warlord" told by a revisionist liberal, and it forces one to only one conclusion, which a kid has no ability to resist.
I suppose I should post the story that started all this (and from the "part 2" I can assume this has been seen and hashed out before).
I asked Joe what I should think, and he told me right away that only I could decide that. Even if I decided not to get confirmed, I was growing up and so it was time I started deciding what I was going to do and believe, and not have others decide it for me.
Then he told me a story.
Long before he had been a missionary in China. The village he was in was very poor, the crops had failed and people were near starving. One of the warlords showed up and told the people, if they would abandon their current master and join him he would see they got food. Just believe in him and all will be okay. Any that did not believe in him would be left to starve to death.
The warlord could have saved everyone, he had wealth and more than enough food, but instead he wanted to save only those who would follow him.
“What do you think of the warlord?”, he asked?
The orange Nehi was cold, and I tasted it on the front of my tongue and in my nose. So different from coke, or the grape Nehi and the questions ran back and forth just behind my eyes.
A week passed and once again I sat down with Father Joe. “What did you decide about the warlord?”, he asked.
“Did he really have enough food for everybody?”, I asked in return.
“Yes he did.”, Said Father Joe.
“Then he should have saved everybody, not just those that believed in him.”, I answered.
So, my problem with Faith's assertion that only one conclusion could have been drawn by the poor, little brainwashed kid, is that it is totally, utterly wrong.
One other conclusion that comes to mind is that the kid could have said "Well, all the people should have saved themselves and taken the warlord up on his proposition." Many, many people come to similar conclusions when faced with extermination or the extermination of their loved ones. We have examples of martyrs from many religions, but they are considered special because there were (probably, I have no stats) so many who gave in to save themselves and/or their families from death, torture or exile.
The kid could have also asked, "Why didn't the people just try to find another place to live?" or "Why couldn't the people hunt for their food?" or "Why didn't the people band together and kill the warlord and take his food?" or a number of other questions that may have been answered one by one until the kid formed his conclusion. Granted, the kid may have gone over these and answered them logically in his head, but the conclusion may not have been as "obvious" to you or anyone depending on the answers given and the alternate conclusion I provided could still be applied.
Yet another conclusion could be that the kid simply stated that "I have to ponder this for awhile." A while can last a very long time...even a lifetime when questions fundamental to one's beliefs need to be considered.
In conclusion, there is definitely more than one conclusion to most problems posed in life and especially this one in particular. Not everything is as black and white as you believe it to be.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Faith, posted 07-19-2006 4:04 AM Jaderis has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2 of 250 (333190)
07-19-2006 4:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jaderis
07-19-2006 3:43 AM


It was a parable about God. All the possibilities you note are impossible even to imagine in the context of Christian teaching about God, even the most liberal Christian teaching.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jaderis, posted 07-19-2006 3:43 AM Jaderis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Brian, posted 07-19-2006 4:45 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 4 by Jaderis, posted 07-19-2006 4:52 AM Faith has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 3 of 250 (333191)
07-19-2006 4:45 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Faith
07-19-2006 4:04 AM


easy to imagine
All the possibilities you note are impossible even to imagine in the context of Christian teaching about God, even the most liberal Christian teaching.
But they arent impossible to imagine, I can imagine all of the possiblities quite easily.
Don't you believe that Yahweh was (is) a tyrant?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Faith, posted 07-19-2006 4:04 AM Faith has not replied

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 4 of 250 (333194)
07-19-2006 4:52 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Faith
07-19-2006 4:04 AM


It was a parable about God. All the possibilities you note are impossible even to imagine in the context of Christian teaching about God, even the most liberal Christian teaching.
So, the possibility that someone would think that everyone would{ABE: or should} choose to be "saved" is impossible to imagine? Or, rather, that someone would think that that is the ideal or logical conclusion?
Wouldn't also the idea of all the people killing the warlord (rejecting God) and taking his food (finding salvation/nourishment themselves) be possible (I know many Christians afraid of just this scenario).
Wouldn't also the idea of all the people moving elsewhere to find food (finding salvation in another faith) be possible?
Wouldn't also the idea of hunting for their food (again, finding salvation for themselves, through their own lives) be possible?
A question was asked: "What do you think of the warlord?"
All of these conclusions could logically be come to after asking "Did the warlord really have enough food for everyone?" (but only the last 3, specifically, would have to go along with a rejection and negative opinion of the warlord (God) ).
It happens all the time.
Jar's parable does not conclude in a selfish portrayal of God, at least to me. The way I see it is that he believes that we are all under God's grace and will find a place near to Him in heaven because He loves us all and would not put a condition on salvation. (Jar, please correct me if I am off the mark here) and the "should have" part led him to believe that that was the true message of God. That is what I gathered from the story. That may be blasphemous and "revisionist liberal" hogwash to you, but it seems logical both to me and the orange-nehi drinking kid.
Edited by Jaderis, : to add "or should"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Faith, posted 07-19-2006 4:04 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Brian, posted 07-19-2006 4:59 AM Jaderis has replied
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 07-19-2006 5:40 AM Jaderis has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 5 of 250 (333195)
07-19-2006 4:59 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Jaderis
07-19-2006 4:52 AM


Nice sentiments, but not the God of the Bible
Hi J,
Jar's parable does not conclude in a selfish portrayal of God, at least to me. The way I see it is that he believes that we are all under God's grace and will find a place near to Him in heaven because He loves us all and would not put a condition on salvation.
This is all nice and fluffy, and may well be true for all we know.
The 'problem' I have with it is that this view of God is nothing at all like the God of the Hebrew Bible and the Christian New Testament.
Both sets of scriptures are rife with examples that contradict this view of God. For example, does God's behaviour during the period of the Judges line up with the idea that He loves everyone? Does it suggest that there is no condition on salvation? The text blatantly contradicts these ideas.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Jaderis, posted 07-19-2006 4:52 AM Jaderis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Jaderis, posted 07-19-2006 5:34 AM Brian has replied

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 6 of 250 (333202)
07-19-2006 5:34 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Brian
07-19-2006 4:59 AM


Re: Nice sentiments, but not the God of the Bible
I wholeheartedly agree that it doesn't line up with scripture (you know, the daddy who tells you how to be good and that it will hurt his feelings when you don't and, when that doesn't work, beats the evil out of you and, when that doesn't work, tells you he loves you and tries to bribe you to be good while holding an even bigger stick than before), but many a person's perception of God doesn't and no one person has a monopoly on who God really is, no matter how much they think they do. Actually, I retract that. Maybe one person has it spot on, but no one can ever know who it is. (I wonder if all the "true believers" get to see all the people they were sure were going to hell up in heaven before they get kicked off the cloud).
Of course, I don't believe any of these perceptions simply because I do not believe in God. I was only relating what I got out of the story.
Edited by Jaderis, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Brian, posted 07-19-2006 4:59 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Brian, posted 07-20-2006 5:13 AM Jaderis has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 7 of 250 (333203)
07-19-2006 5:40 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Jaderis
07-19-2006 4:52 AM


A young person in that Christian school context where the religion is what is always being discussed, would know that it was a parable about the nature of God and salvation. The only apparently moral answer one could possibly arrive at the way the story is set up, again in that educational context, is that the "warlord" should have saved everybody. It is the liberal Christian conclusion and the story leads straight to it, and it seems to me that no other possibility would have occurred to anyone in that setting. I don't see how any of your suggestions would have occurred to any of them.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Jaderis, posted 07-19-2006 4:52 AM Jaderis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Jaderis, posted 07-19-2006 6:06 AM Faith has replied
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 07-19-2006 10:12 AM Faith has replied

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 8 of 250 (333210)
07-19-2006 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
07-19-2006 5:40 AM


I don't see how any of your suggestions would have occurred to any of them.
Because not every kid thinks like every other kid, even if they all went through the same training. I understand that it is a parable. I understand that the kid understood it as a parable. I understand that the question was set up to make a "moral" conclusion about God. But the conclusion made was not the only option available no matter how much you want to believe it is.
Now that I think about it, your problem with the story seems not to be the conclusion, but the fact that the question was asked in the first place.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 07-19-2006 5:40 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Jaderis, posted 07-19-2006 7:03 AM Jaderis has not replied
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 07-19-2006 11:45 AM Jaderis has replied

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 9 of 250 (333225)
07-19-2006 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Jaderis
07-19-2006 6:06 AM


A non-liberal conclusion
I think I have it. The "proper" conclusion to the story would be:
"The warlord was showing his great mercy and love to the people by offering a way out of their suffering. The people knew this, but some refused to believe the warlord and chose to remain in their barren and wicked land. The warlord showed them no mercy and they were stricken from his benevolent presence forever. Those left behind came to know what they gave up when they starved to death and suffered eternally because the warlord had offered them love, but he was also wrathful and just and gave them exactly what they deserved. The warlord is great, the warlord is good. Praise the warlord. Amen."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Jaderis, posted 07-19-2006 6:06 AM Jaderis has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 07-19-2006 9:55 AM Jaderis has replied

  
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 10 of 250 (333236)
07-19-2006 7:53 AM


Thread moved here from the Coffee House forum.
AbE
Since this thread revolves around a member's "belief" statement, I don't feel Coffee House is the appropriate forum. Moved to Faith and Belief
Edited by AdminAsgara, : No reason given.

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 11 of 250 (333257)
07-19-2006 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Jaderis
07-19-2006 7:03 AM


Memories of the past
I think that your post is a pretty accurate example of many Christians beliefs, pretty near spot on I'd say.
But...
first, my Belief Statement was like a travelog. It was a selection of a few faded snapshots out of a big album. Far more pictures were left in the book then were dragged out for the 'Belief Statement'.
Faith made a claim that the story was brainwashing. I find that to be an absolutely amazing claim coming from someone who reads a Bible laced with commentaries. Such books don't even offer the possiblity of the person thinking about what is actually written but instead go straight to telling the reader what they must think.
The reality is that I actually did spend a week pretty much agonizing over the question at that time and it is one that I constantly question even to this day. It was a direct challenge to what I thought I believed (which was in the statement just before what she did quote), that I was saved because I believed in Jesus. It would be so easy for folk to simply accept the warlord as Master and Savior, to profess or even truly believe. But what does that say about GOD?
Another claim that seems to be made pretty regularly is that my Belief System is some soft and fluffy theology. I don't think so. I believe we are all responsible for our own acts. I cannot fall back on the excuse that I have a sinful nature because of some Fall and so I can't help it when I screw up. If I screw up it is because I made bad choices, not because of my Nature.
I believe each of us will be judged, judged individually and completely, based on how we behave while here on earth.
Another claim that seems to be part of the comments so far is that my theology is not that of the Bible. I think that is both true and false. First, I am not searching for the God of the Bible but for GOD. Second, the Bible, like Aesop's Fables (which also took form around the same time), is an anthology of anthologies, a collection of stories meant to convey the point of view of various peoples about how they saw God, themselves, their relationship with God and His with them, their relationships with their families and clan and with other clans and with all the other critters in the world.
The God of the Bible is not GOD. Instead, like another old photo album, in the Bible we see snapshots of how the peoples saw their world and universe at a given moment. God may even be in some of the pictures, fuzzy, out of focus and unidentified in the crowd like a Biblical "Where's Waldo".
As to the existance continuation thread, I am thrilled and shocked. Shocked because frankly I did not expect anyone to even read the original. Thrilled because I believe comment and discussions such as this thread so far where the issue of whether or not my learning experience is brainwashing is a powerful tool in its own as we all try to develop and hone critical thinking skills.
One area of disappointment though is in the selective nature of the quotemining part so far. Further on in my Belief Statement (and I apologize for the length of the sucker, honestly I did cut out much in an attempt to keep it readable), I continue the discussion about questioning beliefs. Why was that excluded Faith? Why was that not also at least refered to?
I honestly believe that there are two types of folk, those that look for Answers to questions and those who look for answers to Question. I believe this is an important distinction.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Jaderis, posted 07-19-2006 7:03 AM Jaderis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Jaderis, posted 07-19-2006 10:06 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 12 of 250 (333266)
07-19-2006 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
07-19-2006 5:40 AM


Consider the alternatives
When I look at this discussion between "liberal" and "conservative" Christianity I always look at it boiling down to the context of an evangelist. We Christians are our own Gods best (or worst) advertisment. One of us may in fact have the "proper" belief as defined by God Himself...if that is possible YET by the way we behave we trash the truths that we believe.
I could patiently explain my beliefs to everyone until the cows (the sacred ones) come home, but in the end, folks on EvC are only going to size me up based on how I respond to their posts, how I talk, what I talk about, and how my temperment appears online.
I may not have embraced as much of Jars beliefs as I have yours, Faith, but I certainly feel the warmth and honesty in how Jar tells his stories and it is because of THAT that I am drawn towards the Spirit. (I then direct any further questions towards God Himself)
As for you, Faith, I have seen the good in you expressed rather well...you know your Bible better all the time...but I have also seen some vindicative and hateful things expressed through your online person. (Please don't misunderstand...Im not attacking you...I'm just being honest)
In the end, I am convinced that we are not in some sort of competition for souls here at EvC. God Himself draws ALL unto Himself. Thats MY two cents worth!
And without attacking my character BUT by being honest, do you think that many of MY beliefs are too liberal? The reason that I ask is because IF they are, that is something that God will have to either commend or convict me of, depending on how Liberal or how Conservative He is. I see traits of both extremes in Him.
Edited by Phat, : hide content due to character flaws of myself

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 07-19-2006 5:40 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Faith, posted 07-19-2006 11:50 AM Phat has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 13 of 250 (333286)
07-19-2006 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Jaderis
07-19-2006 6:06 AM


There is only one moral direction of the answer
The problem with the story is that there is no way to arrive at any conclusion other than that the God of Biblical Christianity is evil or false -- He should have done something else than the Bible says He does. Election is obviously evil according to the parable, for instance. To be righteous, the "warlord" must not choose some over others.
It is set up so that you cannot morally come out on the side of this warlord. He is evil no matter how you look at it. All the options you suggested rest on the same conclusion. So even if one allows that one might think of making war on the warlord or going over to some other warlord, or whatever the other options were, these are all NEGATIVE options, because the implication of the story is that this warlord, who is standing in for the God of Christianity, is wrong in his actions and must be resisted or rejected.
There is no conclusion to the story that exonerates him. Typical liberal Christian or even atheist reasoning.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Jaderis, posted 07-19-2006 6:06 AM Jaderis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by jar, posted 07-19-2006 11:57 AM Faith has replied
 Message 22 by Jaderis, posted 07-19-2006 10:23 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 14 of 250 (333288)
07-19-2006 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
07-19-2006 10:12 AM


Re: Consider the alternatives
.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 07-19-2006 10:12 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 15 of 250 (333290)
07-19-2006 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
07-19-2006 11:45 AM


Re: There is only one moral direction of the answer
The problem with the story is that there is no way to arrive at any conclusion other than that the God of Biblical Christianity is evil or false
I agree. But that is not just the conclusion of that one experience, but rather the conclusion after a long and continuing journey of exploration and questioning. Your quote pretty much sums up what I have learned about the God of many Biblical Christians, it is an evil, petty false Godlet.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 07-19-2006 11:45 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 07-19-2006 12:03 PM jar has replied

  
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