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Author Topic:   Jar's belief statement- Part 2
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 241 of 250 (339150)
08-11-2006 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by nator
08-10-2006 7:50 PM


Re: What is sin?
You admitted to having no evidence to support such a claim.
Yes, of course I have evidence, but it is all subjective, just like my faith, so therefor not worth mentioning. But this whole topic is subjective, yet you seemed more interested in it, than me.
Being open-minded is to be open to ideas and explanations of all kinds.
Are you open minded to life on other planets?
Am I to consider you closed-minded if you do not seriously consider that any or all of these explanations are equally likely?
But I do consider those possibilities just as equally.
You must understand that to me, your perfectly serious mention of a "spirit of murder" possibly being involved is exactly the same as someone seriously mentioning the possibility of alien visitation, implants, etc., being involved.
I see all of these as quite equally with my open mind. Do you?
I understand perfectly why you consider what you consider. What I don't understand is you mocking me for thinking what I do, after experienceing what I did.
Those other explanations are not on equal terms with what I believe, as they have nothing to do with what I felt, and are no more credible than Santa Claus to me. I am not basing this on purely speculation, there is strong subjective evidence supporting how I feel. But because it is subjective, I remain open to all explanations.
I'll take the roast duck, with the mango salsa.
quote:It wasn't the thought of commiting suicide to solve my over inflated problems (in my own head) that scared me, it was the vision associated with it that freaked me out. Sorry, I do not believe this originated in my own mind.
Why couldn't it have?
It could have, but it is highly unlikely. I am not going to go into detail why. It was more than just a thought. It was a complete experience, that I do not believe my mind is capable of producing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by nator, posted 08-10-2006 7:50 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by nator, posted 08-11-2006 7:50 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 242 of 250 (339377)
08-11-2006 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by riVeRraT
08-11-2006 8:08 AM


Re: What is sin?
quote:
Are you open minded to life on other planets?
Sure.
I am open to the idea.
quote:
What I don't understand is you mocking me for thinking what I do, after experienceing what I did.
Don't you?
You have to understand, rat, that you appear to me to construct all sorts of supernatural and fantastic explanations for utterly mundane life events. You appear to me to be able to very, very easily freak yourself out; to give yourself the willies, as it were.
You seem to me to live in a very superstitious, medieval Dark Ages world where succubi visit you at night and demons and evil spirits are likely to be involved in every bad thing that ever happens.
In my world, only children are this preoccupied with superstition and fantasies of this nature.
In my world, rational adults do not think in this way.
quote:
Those other explanations are not on equal terms with what I believe, as they have nothing to do with what I felt,
Of course they are on equal terms with what you believe.
They are all just beliefs, just as your belief is just a belief.
There are many people who believe just as strongly, and even more strongly than you do, in the absolute truth of those other explanations.
If you were actually "open-minded" as you claim you are, you wouldn't disregard all of those other explanations out of hand. You would consider ALL of them as being potentially true, just like I do.
quote:
and are no more credible than Santa Claus to me.
See, you are very closed-minded.
quote:
I am not basing this on purely speculation, there is strong subjective evidence supporting how I feel. But because it is subjective, I remain open to all explanations.
But you have already said that you disregard any explanation but the one you preferr according to your preexisting beliefs, which means that you are not open to all explanations in the least!
quote:
It wasn't the thought of commiting suicide to solve my over inflated problems (in my own head) that scared me, it was the vision associated with it that freaked me out. Sorry, I do not believe this originated in my own mind.
Why couldn't it have?
quote:
It could have, but it is highly unlikely. I am not going to go into detail why.
How convenient.
quote:
It was more than just a thought. It was a complete experience, that I do not believe my mind is capable of producing.
What do you mean by "complete experience"?
Why is your brain not able to produce it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by riVeRraT, posted 08-11-2006 8:08 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Omnivorous, posted 08-11-2006 8:09 PM nator has replied
 Message 248 by riVeRraT, posted 08-12-2006 7:47 PM nator has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 243 of 250 (339394)
08-11-2006 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by nator
08-11-2006 7:50 PM


Re: What is sin?
Off topic: Schraf, have I ever told you how hot I think smart women are?
On topic: Is that a sin?
Edited by Omnivorous, : Corrected the lady's name... good grief, I'm slipping!

God gave us the earth. We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees. God said, ”Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It’s yours.’
--Ann Coulter, Fox-TV: Hannity & Colmes, 20 Jun 01
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by nator, posted 08-11-2006 7:50 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by robinrohan, posted 08-11-2006 8:12 PM Omnivorous has not replied
 Message 245 by nator, posted 08-12-2006 6:06 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 244 of 250 (339395)
08-11-2006 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Omnivorous
08-11-2006 8:09 PM


Re: What is sin?
Off topic: Schraf, have I ever told you how hot I think smart women are?
On topic: Is that a sin?
It's off-topic and very sinful.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Omnivorous, posted 08-11-2006 8:09 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 245 of 250 (339618)
08-12-2006 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Omnivorous
08-11-2006 8:09 PM


Re: What is sin?
quote:
Off topic: Schraf, have I ever told you how hot I think smart women are?
Hmmmm, maybe, but I'm not sure.
I have such a bad memory, I need to be told things over and over before I remember them.
quote:
On topic: Is that a sin?
To quote one of my favorite men of God, Reverend Lovejoy, regarding the Bible and sin:
"...just about everything is a sin. Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically, we're not allowed to go to the bathroom."
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Omnivorous, posted 08-11-2006 8:09 PM Omnivorous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by ringo, posted 08-12-2006 6:22 PM nator has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 246 of 250 (339625)
08-12-2006 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by nator
08-12-2006 6:06 PM


Re: What is sin?
schrafinator writes:
I have such a bad memory, I need to be told things over and over before I remember them.
I was going to mention it too, so I will:
iano may love you for your body, but some of us love you for your brain (too).
And anybody who quotes The Simpsons can't be all bad.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by nator, posted 08-12-2006 6:06 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by nator, posted 08-12-2006 6:23 PM ringo has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 247 of 250 (339627)
08-12-2006 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by ringo
08-12-2006 6:22 PM


Re: What is sin?
XXXOOO
And I don't think Ian actually loves me, for my outward appearance or otherwise.
I think he is confused by me.
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
Edited by schrafinator, : spelling!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by ringo, posted 08-12-2006 6:22 PM ringo has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 248 of 250 (339670)
08-12-2006 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by nator
08-11-2006 7:50 PM


Re: What is sin?
quote:Are you open minded to life on other planets?
Sure.
I am open to the idea.
I rest my case.
You have to understand, rat, that you appear to me to construct all sorts of supernatural and fantastic explanations for utterly mundane life events.
#1, there was nothing mundane about what I experienced.
#2 There is no "all sorts of supernatural events" Just possibilities.
I am actually a very realistic person, and very hard to convince of anything supernatural.
You seem to me to live in a very superstitious, medieval Dark Ages world where succubi visit you at night and demons and evil spirits are likely to be involved in every bad thing that ever happens.
Thats probably how you look at most religious people. Nice try, but not me. I am as on the cutting eg=dge as I can be, relative to what I do, and enjoy in life.
In my world, rational adults do not think in this way.
I wouldn't be so quick to speak for "rational adults" as you may not even know what that term means. If God exists, then you are the irrational one.
If you were actually "open-minded" as you claim you are, you wouldn't disregard all of those other explanations out of hand. You would consider ALL of them as being potentially true, just like I do.
As I mentioned before, I have not disregarded anything, and as I have told you before, I always feel that anything is possible in life. I just weigh out the differences, and possibilities, and go with is the most possibile explanation. Always subject to change, I am not "set in my ways" in the least. I have to keep reminding you, that for most of my life, I did not believe in this stuff at all. Your problem is that you think that you are somehow better than me, becuase this stuff just does not exist, and no rational adult would think this way. So, I must be a kook, who jumps at every willie feeling I get. Not so.
quote:and are no more credible than Santa Claus to me.
See, you are very closed-minded.
No, I am smart.
How convenient.
Haven't you dragged this thread off topic enough?
Plus, I don't think I could easily convey this in an internet forum. Seeing you never seem to understand how I am, it would just be a total waste of time. Maybe if you knew me in RL, you would understand better, and take what I say more seriously. Besides you are set in your rational adult ways.
What do you mean by "complete experience"?
Why is your brain not able to produce it?
My brain did not produce someone elses suicide. It may have produced a connection between what I felt, and what he went through, but if you break anything down far enough that is subjective, you can always explain it away, sweet dreams.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by nator, posted 08-11-2006 7:50 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by nator, posted 08-19-2006 2:49 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 249 of 250 (341414)
08-19-2006 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by riVeRraT
08-12-2006 7:47 PM


Re: What is sin?
quote:
I rest my case.
What case?
quote:
#1, there was nothing mundane about what I experienced.
...according to you. Since you are not forthcoming about what you experienced, I have no idea if it is mundane or not.
quote:
#2 There is no "all sorts of supernatural events" Just possibilities.
Now you are equivocating. You have stated that you believe that all sorts of supernatuural events have happened, and that "spirits" exist.
quote:
I am actually a very realistic person, and very hard to convince of anything supernatural.
LOL! "Difficult" compared to whom?
You seem to me to live in a very superstitious, medieval Dark Ages world where succubi visit you at night and demons and evil spirits are likely to be involved in every bad thing that ever happens.
quote:
Thats probably how you look at most religious people.
No, that's what you seem like to me, which is exactly what I wrote. What I wrote is what I meant. Granted, I indulged in hyperbole a bit. But only a bit.
quote:
Nice try, but not me.
Look, you're the one who says he has visions from God. You're the one who says that evil spirits exist.
I am sorry, but that is pretty extreme among all of the religious people I've ever known.
In my world, rational adults do not think in this way.
quote:
I wouldn't be so quick to speak for "rational adults" as you may not even know what that term means.
I know exactly what it means.
It means "having the ability to reason".
quote:
If God exists, then you are the irrational one.
What does the existence of God have to do with thinking rationally?
Are you trying to say that if God exists, evil spirits must therefore exist?
Like I said.
In my world, rational adults do not think in this way.
See, you are very closed-minded.
quote:
No, I am smart.
The two conditions are not mutually exclusive.
Besides, the opposite of "closed-minded" is "open-minded"
What do you mean by "complete experience"?
Why is your brain not able to produce it?
quote:
My brain did not produce someone elses suicide.
What are you talking about?
You said:
quote:
It wasn't the thought of commiting suicide to solve my over inflated problems (in my own head) that scared me, it was the vision associated with it that freaked me out. Sorry, I do not believe this originated in my own mind.
I asked why it was impossible that this vision which freaked you out couldn't have originated in your own mind.
quote:
It may have produced a connection between what I felt, and what he went through, but if you break anything down far enough that is subjective, you can always explain it away, sweet dreams.
Yeah, so you claim.
Tell me, though.
Which is more probable;
1) You experienced a microsleep or a sleep- or meditative-like, state while you were lying on your bed, ruminating about all the bad things in your life, and you had a little bit of a nightmare that startled you, or
2) You just let your thoughts wander and you let your fears and imagination get the better of you and you freaked yourself out, or
3) You had a little flashback brain fart from your drug and drink days, or
4) That you had some kind of momentary supernaturally-caused psychic/religious evil spirit connection with this man who later killed himself?
We know that many, many people's brains produce strange experiences, and we can even reproduce them artificially.
I ask again.
Why is it impossible that your brain and emotional state could have produced your scary vision?
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

"Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!"
- Ned Flanders
"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by riVeRraT, posted 08-12-2006 7:47 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by riVeRraT, posted 08-20-2006 9:08 PM nator has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 250 of 250 (341797)
08-20-2006 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by nator
08-19-2006 2:49 PM


Re: What is sin?
Now you are equivocating. You have stated that you believe that all sorts of supernatuural events have happened, and that "spirits" exist.
No schraf, I am not. I have never claim supernatural events as an absolute, I am a realist, and understand fully the validity of things, and whether they can be proven or not. As I always state though, love is a subjective thing and cannot be proven, yet we all know it exists.
They are possibilities, and I accept that they are, more than you.
LOL! "Difficult" compared to whom?
You laugh out loud as if you know me. Compared to you. It's all relative.
Look, you're the one who says he has visions from God.
Just to clear things up, when I say I have a vision, I usually say that I "believe" it is from God. I will leave the final answer to that question up to the person who reads it. I will not be offended if someone doesn't think it is from God.
You're the one who says that evil spirits exist.
I say it is very possible that it exists, and the method in which they operate seems to match what I have learned through the bible. It is, however, still subjective, I know that.
I know exactly what it means.
It means "having the ability to reason".
This doesn't mean your Dr.Spock or something. We all view the world through our subjective minds.
What does the existence of God have to do with thinking rationally?
Because of the mockery, and the unbelief from you, makes you irrational, "if God exists". Maybe one day before or after you die, God will reveall all to you, and then you will go...."oh I get it."
Or, just be fair, one day I will die, and there will be nothing.
The two conditions are not mutually exclusive.
Besides, the opposite of "closed-minded" is "open-minded"
You don't think that being open minded is a part of being smart?
It allows for growth, where as close-mindedness does not.
I asked why it was impossible that this vision which freaked you out couldn't have originated in your own mind.
IT was the complete experience, including my nieghbors shitty death, and my other meighbors comments, that did not come from my mind. What may have come from my mind, which I joked about, is post-hoc reasoniing.
I ask again.
Why is it impossible that your brain and emotional state could have produced your scary vision?
Yes, it is possible, but not what I am choosing to believe is the truth at this point in time.


Exposing the lies, one truth at a time!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by nator, posted 08-19-2006 2:49 PM nator has not replied

  
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