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Author Topic:   Biblical Coherency (Rob and Iceage Only)
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3471 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 16 of 30 (417274)
08-20-2007 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Rob
08-19-2007 11:44 PM


Re: Answering the wrong question.
Rob writes:

No, it sure doesn't...

Dude this is the Great Debate that you wanted and all you have is "No, it sure doesn't"

Note, I don't fault you for not having any defense or rational explanations. There really is no reconciliation of

quote:
Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you

with...

quote:
Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood

They are incompatible notions.

In the words of the Greek Philosopher Aristotle: "one cannot say of something that it is and that it is not in the same respect and at the same time"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Rob, posted 08-19-2007 11:44 PM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Rob, posted 08-20-2007 9:30 AM iceage has responded

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3471 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 17 of 30 (417285)
08-20-2007 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Rob
08-19-2007 11:38 PM


Stop the blather.
Your post is a series of unrelated muddled sentence fragments?

Rob writes:

Is that defiance in spite of terms of peace offered by the assaulting party, require the storming of a stronghold to exterminate the utterly defiant...

Just what are you referring to? I cannot respond to gibberish. You are missing a subject.

This often results in callateral damage...

Are the taking of women and virgin girls collateral damage?

Rob writes:

Do you really believe that these ancient nations were just hip village people smoking dope at the plaza and wanting to all get along?

Jesus's comments come from within the context of Roman domination. Did you think that the Romans were village people smoking dope?

The various quotes I supplied come from various contexts.

Rob writes:

Do you really believe?

Do you really?

That it is the same thing?

If so, we have nothing to discuss...

Huh? this is blather

Rob writes:

For your defiance...

Blinds your eyes from reasonable discussion............

Blather, fragments and spittle.

If you continue with responses of this nature and quality, I would like to request that we open this topic up for others.

To be honest I would rather lose this debate and gain some understanding.

Edited by iceage, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Rob, posted 08-19-2007 11:38 PM Rob has not yet responded

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3405 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 18 of 30 (417320)
08-20-2007 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by iceage
08-20-2007 1:49 AM


Re: Answering the wrong question.
Iceage:
They are incompatible notions.

In the words of the Greek Philosopher Aristotle: "one cannot say of something that it is and that it is not in the same respect and at the same time"

Very good Iceage, but isn't that the law of non contradiction? I think Aristotle actually put it differently.

Nonetheless, I think it is marvelous that you believe in the law of non-contradiction. So we can proceed...

Look at the last seven words in the quote you gave and study them. You're quite right, you cannot do those things in the same respect, and in the same time. But you can do them both without contradiction while remaining just and good at all times.

You don't just go out and kill and God never suggested such a thing. You love your enemy. You offer terms of peace. Give him an opportunity to be reasonable. Explain yourself to him. Show him that there is a bigger picture to consider. Show him that God loves him.

But if to the bitter end, they insist on killing you (which is unloving on thier part) you do not hold back your sword when the time comes.

And there is also the spiritual overtones...

The sword signifies 'the truth' (logic) and the blood signifies the flesh.

It's not complicated.

So when you read the following, notice that it does not say, 'at the same time'.

Ecclesiastes 3:1 There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven: 2 a time to be born and a time to die, a time to plant and a time to uproot, 3 a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build, 4 a time to weep and a time to laugh, a time to mourn and a time to dance, 5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them, a time to embrace and a time to refrain, 6 a time to search and a time to give up, a time to keep and a time to throw away, 7 a time to tear and a time to mend, a time to be silent and a time to speak, 8 a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace.

Edited by Rob, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by iceage, posted 08-20-2007 1:49 AM iceage has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by iceage, posted 08-20-2007 9:49 PM Rob has responded

    
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3471 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 19 of 30 (417409)
08-20-2007 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Rob
08-20-2007 9:30 AM


Re: Answering the wrong question.
Rob writes:

I think it is marvelous that you believe in the law of non-contradiction.

Ya... I put that in there because I knew it would engage you and you needed some rejuvenation :)

Rob writes:

in the same respect, and in the same time

But aren't some of God's top level ethical laws atemporal and absolute?

Is there a time and place for Rape? even Child Rape? Slavery? Placing your enemies heads on pikes? Is there a time and place to be blessed by dashing your enemies babies on the rocks?

Rob writes:

You don't just go out and kill and God never suggested such a thing. You love your enemy.

Rob read the text. This warlord god does not just offer killing as a possible suggestion but directly *commands killing*. This comment of yours demonstrates your direct avoidance of the material.

"Cursed be he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood."

The work of this lord includes the wetting of the sword with the blood of your enemies.

Rob writes:

You love your enemy.

Not in the OT. There is *no love* in the taking of women and little girls captive. There is *no love* in hewing your enemy to pieces. You don't love your neighbor or enemy by enslavement.

Rob writes:

You offer terms of peace. Give him an opportunity to be reasonable. Explain yourself to him. Show him that there is a bigger picture to consider. Show him that God loves him.

What????? I provided several examples (and a limited set) from various contexts including conquest and domestic. There are direct orders to kill your (Hebrew) neighbor, friend and brother.

In the specific context, I am guessing you are referring to is Deuteronomy 20. The peace offer was slavery and servitude. This was conquest, the taking of the lands of Canaan. Go read it in context "As you approach a town to attack it". It was not "say fellows if you let us in, we would like to talk to you guys about God, love and the big picture". The offer was slavery OR death and the rape of your women. This is not big picture love.

You are not approaching these passages honestly but purposefully and willfully white-washing the content.

Rob writes:

And there is also the spiritual overtones...

The sword signifies 'the truth' (logic) and the blood signifies the flesh.

Utter whitewashed putrid new-age bullshit!

Duet 32 writes:

I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.

Ezekiel 5 writes:

Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers

Perhaps you can parse the spiritual content in the above passages for us?

Rob writes:

So when you read the following, notice that it does not say, 'at the same time'

Jesus's passage about loving your neighbor, turning the other cheek, do not repay evil with evil, pray for those who curse you, are not situational or temporal commands. Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world and if it was his servants would be fighting.

The foundational ethics of the old testament and new testament are far apart, distinct and in contradiction to each other.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Rob, posted 08-20-2007 9:30 AM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Rob, posted 08-21-2007 2:26 AM iceage has responded

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3405 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 20 of 30 (417439)
08-21-2007 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by iceage
08-20-2007 9:49 PM


Re: Answering the wrong question.
Iceage:
Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world and if it was his servants would be fighting.

Fighting to prevent what specific event in time?

His arrest!

You don't really think Jesus is a pacifist do you?

He offered his own life as a sacrifice for the sin of all mankind.

IT WAS A BLOODBATH!

Blood must be spilt to atone for sin. Would you have preferred it be your own as it was in the old covenant?

You still have that option you know?

Revelation 19:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great." 19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

That's some pacifist!

The same law is at work in both covenants. The same God. But He had to come into 'time' Iceage. He had to redeem 'sinful man' and sinful flesh. So He came not as God, but as man. His mission was death. And he did not hold back His own sword against Himself. He put to death His flesh, so that we don't have to...

But we still have to fight from time to time...

The most powerful force in the universe is logic. The only thing that can stop it is deliberate denial and blasphemy of it. And in such a state of being, the soul must die. And the tool that will do it is the very Word of God. In the end, when you have exhausted yourself and your time is no more, you will fall into the hands of reality.

Trust me... you're not ready!

Jesus faced His own sword so that you and I do not have to. He held back no blood or sword. Take the offer...

As Mr. Beaver said to the childs question about Aslan (Jesus), 'Is he safe?' (Lewis, 'the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe')

[b]'Safe? ... Safe? No He's not safe ... but he is good!'

So Iceage... forgive me for sayng this, oh wise master of your own illogical kingdom and jester in reality's court; in the case of His arrest... to avoid his purpose for coming would have been sin.

In this time laden moment, yes... do not fight. Even Peter (who pulled his sword at that moment) didn't understand until later.

'There is a time, for every season, under heaven'...

Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Edited by Rob, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by iceage, posted 08-20-2007 9:49 PM iceage has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by iceage, posted 08-21-2007 4:57 AM Rob has responded

    
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3471 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 21 of 30 (417451)
08-21-2007 4:57 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Rob
08-21-2007 2:26 AM


Re: Answering the wrong question.
You insist on veering way off topic!!!!

This is not some area where you can just launch off into a jeering word salad non-sequitur preaching session. Like a drunken monkey leaping from tree to tree you leap from idea to idea hoping one will make sense and connect with the topic and the prior comment.

The topic is


How is the principle NT ethic of loving your neighbor and further even loving and praying for your enemies and overcoming evil with good reconcilable or coherent with the OT instructive stories which allegedly involve direct commands of God which go counter to the NT ethic?

The OT did not preach or teach loving your enemy. I provided many examples, such as the taking of women as booty, direct orders to kill your neighbor and the displaying of the heads of the enemy in the sun (to please the warlord god).

The NT preached loving of your neighbor and enemy and not returning evil for evil.

The God of the OT is fundamentally different and incoherent to the God (Jesus) of the NT.

Your prior comments are false. Lets review...

Rob writes:

You don't just go out and kill and God never suggested such a thing. You love your enemy. You offer terms of peace. Give him an opportunity to be reasonable. Explain yourself to him. Show him that there is a bigger picture to consider. Show him that God loves him.

That is demonstratively false. I provided evidence. Here is some more

Ezekiel 9 writes:

Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children.

And then you say....

Rob writes:

And there is also the spiritual overtones...

The sword signifies 'the truth' (logic) and the blood signifies the flesh.

That is absurd.

In your last post the only thought I could find that might pertain to the topic is:

Rob writes:


In this time laden moment, yes... do not fight. Even Peter (who pulled his sword at that moment) didn't understand until later.

Are you saying that the commands to love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you was for that "time laden moment" only?

Rob writes:

'There is a time, for every season, under heaven'...

Is there a time for child rape? slavery? murder? Do these things contradict love?

Edited by iceage, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Rob, posted 08-21-2007 2:26 AM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Rob, posted 08-21-2007 9:53 AM iceage has responded

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3405 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 22 of 30 (417477)
08-21-2007 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by iceage
08-21-2007 4:57 AM


Re: Answering the wrong question.
Iceage:
Is there a time for child rape? slavery? murder? Do these things contradict love?

Child rape? Where'd that come from?

Do you mean, 'does not allowing a former diseased and virus laden member of a society to continue on that path, and instead re-habilitating them contradict love'?

These people you refer to were little more than animals. Debauched and inscrupulous cultures where these practices you denounce were common. They were insanely religious, even sacrificing their own testicles to fertility gods in some cases.

Even today, in parts of the Middle East the population is kept in check only by fear and intimidation.

It takes a lot of love to give someone programmed and damaged, by that kind of dysfunctional system, the chance to understand. And it takes a lot of time for them to understand what their life is all about.

As for Isreal's own, they had no excuse. At least the others were relatively ignorant. God will restore those who are innocent...

As soon as we create a creature who has the power to choose -minus- omnipotence... we set up a situation where that creature may choose not to trust our judgement and begin to think of himself first and his short term desire.

Therefore he will get out of what he calls his cage if we let him. It is up to us to take responsibility, and sometimes wipe out whole communities to keep the 'total organism' within our control.

He is confused by our position. He does not know what he is doing. And he does not know that we will rebuild him and restore all things giving him the benefit of hindsight.

He is too busy trying to get out of his cage.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by iceage, posted 08-21-2007 4:57 AM iceage has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by iceage, posted 08-21-2007 10:12 AM Rob has not yet responded
 Message 24 by iceage, posted 08-25-2007 11:27 PM Rob has responded

    
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3471 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 23 of 30 (417479)
08-21-2007 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Rob
08-21-2007 9:53 AM


Re: Answering the wrong question.
You continue to avoid the main topic and look for side alleys to venture down.

Why do you not address the main topic?

The topic is


How is the principle NT ethic of loving your neighbor and further even loving and praying for your enemies and overcoming evil with good reconcilable or coherent with the OT instructive stories which allegedly involve direct commands of God which go counter to the NT ethic?

Rob writes:

Child rape? Where'd that come from?

Let's read the scripture....

Numbers 31 writes:

Now kill all the boys... but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

I am sure these girls will be sent off to finishing school.

Rob writes:

As soon as we create a creature who has the power to choose -minus- omnipotence... we set up a situation where that creature may choose not to trust our judgement and begin to think of himself first and his short term desire.

Therefore he will get out of what he calls his cage if we let him. It is up to us to take responsibility, and sometimes wipe out whole communities to keep the 'total organism' within our control.

He is confused by our position. He does not know what he is doing. And he does not know that we will rebuild him and restore all things giving him the benefit of hindsight.

He is too busy trying to get out of his cage.

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Edited by iceage, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Rob, posted 08-21-2007 9:53 AM Rob has not yet responded

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3471 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 24 of 30 (418031)
08-25-2007 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Rob
08-21-2007 9:53 AM


Request for Moderation Action
Since this thread has been abandoned by Rob, even though it was on his insistence this be a Great Debate, I would like to request this thread be opened for others.

I believe that Rob abandoned for good reasons. Certainly not my debating skills, but because justifying the OT Godly directed genocide stories with the "Love Your Neighbor" command is indefensible. However, if possible, I would like to open this thread up to see if any others fair better.

In the end Rob even advocated genocide as necessary and responsible:

Rob writes:

It is up to us to take responsibility, and sometimes wipe out whole communities to keep the 'total organism' within our control.

Yikes! glad the Christian theist are no longer in control.

Those who blasphemously worship the bible itself and their "faith" requires that the Bible be considered as a whole divinely inspired work of the creator, this specific ethical contradiction is the best antidote to that notion. Other contradictions like Matthew misquoting and misreferencing the OT and gemological errors are trivial by comparison. The wide gaping disparity between godly commanded genocide and loving your neighbor is too wide to justify honestly or rationally.

As an aside, I believe the chief value of the Bible is the documentation of the evolution or transformation of human ethics, such as:

Love your tribal neighbor -> Love your non-tribal neighbor -> Love your enemy.

These evolved ethical concepts are not necessarily unique or innovated by the biblical writers but they are revealed within a unified context and clearly and forcefully presented.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Rob, posted 08-21-2007 9:53 AM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Rob, posted 08-25-2007 11:55 PM iceage has responded

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3405 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 25 of 30 (418035)
08-25-2007 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by iceage
08-25-2007 11:27 PM


Re: Request for Moderation Action
Iceage your assertions are utterly rediculous. I answered your questions. You just didn't like the answers. You've already decided long ago what the answer is. I knew that going in...

I only agreed to the debate as a great debate. The Admins agreed. If you want to start a new thread on the basis of my responses you're free to do so. But I won't be participating in my own funeral. Have your bloody feast without me. I already have a sacrifice for my sins.

I would just assume leave this open as it stands; a place for you and I to hash out any future disagreements one on one.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by iceage, posted 08-25-2007 11:27 PM iceage has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by iceage, posted 08-26-2007 8:34 PM Rob has responded

    
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3471 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 26 of 30 (418181)
08-26-2007 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Rob
08-25-2007 11:55 PM


Holy Genocide
Rob writes:

I answered your questions.

Please summarize and highlight where you believe you answered the question and have reconciled how these dark episodes of killing, plundering and rape are internally coherent with the message of love your enemy.

While you are summarizing, also please explain how your own sociopathic comment of support for genocide...

Rob shamefully writes:

It is up to us to take responsibility, and sometimes wipe out whole communities to keep the 'total organism' within our control.

Is reconcilable with the words of Jesus?

Matthew writes:

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you

Do Jesus's teachings require qualification?

Interestingly your words more closely align with medieval Christian thought or contemporary radical Islamic thought. For example, your comments are more closely aligned with the Iranian president....

Ahmadinejad writes:

Very soon, this stain of disgrace [Israel] will be purged from the center of the Islamic world and this is obtainable

Your words use the same language of most genocidal campaigns, claiming the killing is required "to heal" or for the "greater good" or "remove the stain" and in your case, perhaps even more despicable, "keep total control".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Rob, posted 08-25-2007 11:55 PM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Rob, posted 08-28-2007 12:42 AM iceage has responded

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3405 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 27 of 30 (418410)
08-28-2007 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by iceage
08-26-2007 8:34 PM


Re: Holy Genocide
Bless you Iceage. Jesus loves you. I'll pray for you even more than I already do.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by iceage, posted 08-26-2007 8:34 PM iceage has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by iceage, posted 08-30-2007 3:00 PM Rob has not yet responded

    
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3471 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 28 of 30 (418838)
08-30-2007 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Rob
08-28-2007 12:42 AM


Prayers of what and to whom
Rob writes:

I'll pray for you even more than I already do.

I went back and reread my post trying to find what it was exactly that caused you to believe that I was in need more prayer !!!

Was it the emphasis I was placing on Jesus's "love your enemy, bless them that curse you, do good to those who hate you" teachings.

Further I wonder what and to *whom* you are going to pray. I can envision your prayer something like this...

quote:

Dear Jesus please open their eyes so that they can understand the qualifications and relativeness associated with your own words and and teachings.

Please Jesus let them understand the spiritual dimensions associated with genocide and the righteousness and necessity of "wiping out whole communities" to keep the organism healthy and in control.

Let them understand the even though Supernova are well within your control that there are times when, you dear God, need us, your loyal servants, to carry out holy hits in your holy name.

Yay dear God let them understand there is time for murder, taking virgins for ones selves, slavery and plunder.

These things we pray, in your holy name - Amen


Well in all seriousness you appear to have hit the bottom and have run dry with any defenses related to the topic.

Just why is that you want to this to remain a "Great Debate" when you have nothing to offer other than supposed prayers.

Are you still thinking and searching for possible reconciliations related to this topic? If so I can understand that and don't have problem. However if it is some weird self-infested sort of pride then be done with it man.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Rob, posted 08-28-2007 12:42 AM Rob has not yet responded

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3471 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 29 of 30 (419204)
09-01-2007 2:05 PM


Bump for Rob
Just doing my part to keep threads on track around here.

Any particular reason why you abandoned this thread? Any particular reason why you are unable to focus and summarize your position? Any particular reason why you refuse to allow others in here?

Edited by iceage, : No reason given.


  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3471 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 30 of 30 (420241)
09-07-2007 12:53 AM


Bump again... and again....
Rob have you abandon this thread?

Since you have not responded for quite some time I thought I would remind you of the topic...

Rob writes:

I invite you to put the God of the bible on trial and find a contradiction...

OK try this....

iceage writes:

How is the principle NT ethic of loving your neighbor and further even loving and praying for your enemies and overcoming evil with good, reconcilable or coherent with the OT instructive stories which allegedly involve direct commands of God which go counter to the NT ethic?


  
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