Evolution is NOT science: A challenge

I am sick of tired of seeing creationists say 'evolution is religion! Just look at the evidence!' and then showing no evidence!I'll use myself as an example: I am a Christian(although not a good one by some standards). I believe in God. A very powerful one at that. I believe the teachings of Jesus were the greatest philosophical and moral feats the world has or will ever see. I'm pretty sure he was the son of God, too. I THINK or KNOW, not believe, that evolution happened because of the evidence which does NOT contradict anything but a literal interpretation of Genesis. So, how am I an Evolutionist when I'm already a Christian?I challenge anyone who claims that evolution is a belief system/religion to prove this to me as a fellow Theist. Some of you have said that the atheists are biased against the evidence you present; I am not atheist so I will have this alledged barrier lifted and I'll be able to understand every word you say. So please, enlighten me.(PS Atheists such as Crashfrog and Schrafinator, I know you guys will be eager to jump on 'em in here too, but I think the point of this topic would be better presented if you guys stayed out of it just this once. Please, it would help to get the point across. Thanks)This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 07-08-2004 07:14 PMThis message has been edited by Born2Preach, 07-08-2004 07:17 PM

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

Just so you know. If you need any help on some technical stuff (not that I doubt your abilities, but nobody knows everything about everything), we're here.

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The Laminator

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Great thread.Understand there are many Christians here to help or support you so call on us if you wish.edited to add, does the title need to be changed.This message has been edited by jar, 07-08-2004 09:28 PM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Lol. Hey B2P lets have a go on the mat and settle this! I do not believe evolution is a religion. But I believe it takes a wild stretch of the imagination to have randomness produce life in all the complexity and similarity that we see. I believe evolution happens to a certain extent. I believe natural selection occurs within the bounds of genetic material already present. And I believe that one time in a hundred million a mutation of genetic material may change an organism so that it is better suited to a particular environment (like the nylon bug). But I do not believe information and complexity can be increased by randomness. I don't know of any organism that has ever been observed to become more complex. In fact, random mutations almost always produce inferior changes and the ones that are beneficial to the organism in some way are usually detrimental in several other ways. We don't see many species being created but see MANY becoming extinct. We have never observed abiogenesis and the odds of it happening by chance especially in the environment of "primitive earth" are nil. We have completely complex and fully formed life in cambrian rock... And we do not know that radioactive elements have always decayed at the same rate, infact there is evidence to suggest they have not (blast halos, c DK, h increase, and see my post in cosmology and the big bang on red shift quantization, and I forget the others). Well I think thats enough to begin with, besides the fact that you really can't rectify the Bible being absolute truth from God AND evolution because there are too many statements in the Bible that contradict evolution.I believe God created Adam and Eve and all the animals perfect, but since then all creatures have changed and devolved somewhat.I spose thats enough inflammatory statements for one post.

I don't know whether to reply since you have already indicated you are not responding to the challenge in the opening post.Almost everything in your post belongs on a PRATT list.But let's just take one.

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But I believe it takes a wild stretch of the imagination to have randomness produce life in all the complexity and similarity that we see.

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No wilder really than the fact that randomness in meiotic sorting produces 6 billion uniquely individual humans. And that is just the current generation.Have you ever calculated how many uniquely different humans could be produced from one father and one mother if time and energy permitted every possible combination of paternal and maternal chromosomes in sperm and ova?

Gah... you people seem so smart until you start trying to defend your theory. I've heard all kinds of things like this and none of them have anything to do with the argument.If you put an immortal monkey in a room with a typewriter and check back in a few billion years he will NOT have written the Bible.Meiotic sorting works with information already present.Hurricanes are far more random than the simplest life.I've heard people say hurricanes are examples of raw energy increasing complexity and adding information. Hurricanes are produced basically by convection evaporation and the earth's rotation. So by their logic, every time I let my bathwater out or watch a cloud rise I am witnessing something comparable to increasing compelxity in evolution... amazing.

So how you handle Dawkins' selfish gene theory then? According to Dawkins, this theory supposedly informs us about our loving, greed, genorisity and whatnot. This theory does not violate the tenets of your religion, does it not dominate your personal views?Similar things can be said of Konrad Lorenz's book "On aggression" / "The socalled evil", or Darwin's "Descent of Man".Do you think methodological naturalism, (dialectic)materialsim, monism etc. is the only valid way to do science?Besides that, do you perhaps deny God someplace on account of evolution, like affirm God as having started it all, but deny God having anything to do with evolution, or how evolution happened?How do you view nature, do you view it much as a sphere of ruthless struggle of all against all, or do you more perceive an intricate purposeful design?Lastly what is your view on creation? Do you regard with some reverence creation events, wherein God created nature?regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

I'm curious. How did you become a Christian and do you expect to attain eternal life?

Just a reminder that Preach is looking for debate with his fellow Xians and not the evo side of the forum.

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AdminAsgara
Queen of the Universe

Have you ever calculated how unlikely it would be to randomly produce one human mother and father from scratch?

Now Asgara, you're making the same mistake many others make. Christian and Creationist are not synonymous. The vast majority of Christians I've ever come across fully support evolution and the Theory of Evolution.This is a partial list of Christian (and Jewish) groups that have publicly said they support Evolution and believe that Creationism is neither correct nor science and that it should not be taught in schools.# American Jewish Congress
# American Scientific Affiliation
# Center For Theology And The Natural Sciences
# Central Conference Of American Rabbis
# Episcopal Bishop Of Atlanta, Pastoral Letter
# The General Convention Of The Episcopal Church
# Lexington Alliance Of Religious Leaders
# The Lutheran World Federation
# Roman Catholic Church
# Unitarian Universalist Association
# United Church Board For Homeland Ministries
# United Methodist Church
# United Presbyterian Church In The U.S.A. source

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

No, it doesn't. What's your point? Astronomy, no. Biological science, yes. Absolutely not, I think God had a plan when He set evolution going. But either way, EVOLUTION HAPPENED. And in this case, I'm attributing it to God so I'm not worshipping evolution, am I? Both, but mostly the latter. Ever thought that the Divine Plan might have some branches? I doubt everything happens exactly according to Plan; I'm sure God's fun enough to let some variables be present judging by what I see around me. Absolutely. But hey, I used myself as an example but I'm not just talking about me. I want to know why some say that Evolution is a belief system?

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

I don't expect much of anything; I'll be the best Christian and person I can be and descriminate no one. From scripture it would look like you can obtain passage to Heaven through faith in Christ, so I guess I'd be okay? But that doesn't matter in this arguement, does it? Please address the arguement; if you want to discuss my beliefs you can email me or open a thread titled "Born2Preach is a Heretic". Thanks.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

Esuplex!! I oughta make a virus by that name, if only I didn't suck with computers. Anyway... Ever thought that a God was orchestrating natural selection just enough to allow intelligent life to come into being? Also, if you don't believe evolution is a faith/belief system then why are you here in this thread? If you think it's far-fetched, that's fine because it kind of is. But that doesn't make it a religion, and if you agree with that then I've got no arguement with you. That's fine; if you want to defend that point you can do so in threads debating whether or not evolution happened. I'm not argueing that here, I'm argueing that it's not a religion.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

That is because of the atheism, materialism, social darwinism associated to the theory, that many creationists view evolution theory more as a belief system. And for many influential evolutionists this is true, that it was / is more like a belief system then a science, Galton, Lorenz, Haeckel, Darwin, Dawkins, Huxley etc. We can't say of Darwin for instance, that he had some set of beliefs much independent from evolution, in stead he had personal beliefs drenched in Darwinism, more so as he grew older. If you would for the most part accept what these authors have written about evolution, then in all likelyhood your religion would be displaced, or rendered meaningless.I'm a bit surprised you would consider materialism sufficient for biology, but not for astronomy. What about information conceptions of organisms? That doesn't seem very materialist to me (although undoubtedly the meaning of the word material will be stretched to include information as being material).regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu