Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Faith by Definition
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 136 of 149 (436258)
11-24-2007 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by nator
11-24-2007 8:01 PM


Re: Don't think you can palm the pea
There you go again, straight to the tools. As if the tools themselves were the essential thing.
*sigh*
The tools are only as powerful as the person using them. It's not the tools that determine what is real and what is fantasy. It is the person who calibrates them and decides which ones to apply to a situation. Its always the person at root. Them and their assumptions.
When you get someone like you and someone like me we will use the same tools in many situations. In other situations we diverge however. My toolbox is not exactly the same as yours.
Unless you trust your tools you cannot tell what is real from what is fanatasy. You do know what is real and what is fantasy Schraf?
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by nator, posted 11-24-2007 8:01 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by nator, posted 11-25-2007 8:48 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 137 of 149 (436261)
11-24-2007 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by jar
11-24-2007 8:03 PM


Re: You still have not answered the question
quote:
How will you know?
The same way as anyone knows anything. Their brain cells/atoms/synapses conform to a particular pattern. That's all knowing is - we might agree.
quote:
What tests can be applied to tell if it is of divine or non-divine origin?
Test? You assert one is necessary. I assert one is not. Occams Razor is on my side. Where now?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by jar, posted 11-24-2007 8:03 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by jar, posted 11-24-2007 8:30 PM iano has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 138 of 149 (436267)
11-24-2007 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by iano
11-24-2007 8:19 PM


Re: You still have not answered the question
Well as usual you quoted only part of what I asked.
iano writes:
If the divine decides you shall know then you shall know. It's hard to argue against it - not that you have tried.
jar writes:
How will you know? What tests can be applied to tell if it is of divine or non-divine origin?
You still have not described the test.
You make a claim. I asked how you test that. You still have not answered.
Then you say:
iano writes:
The same way as anyone knows anything. Their brain cells/atoms/synapses conform to a particular pattern. That's all knowing is - we might agree.
What is that pattern? How do we test that pattern? What test shows us that the pattern was created by divine rather than non-divine methods.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 8:19 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 8:58 PM jar has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 139 of 149 (436273)
11-24-2007 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by jar
11-24-2007 8:30 PM


Re: You still have not answered the question
quote:
You make a claim. I asked how you test that. You still have not answered.
Claim is too strong a word. I make certain statements.
I have answered but you don't like it. One can only do so much with a bad question. I say I don't need to test. Can you imagine the sheer waste of time if everyone went around devising tests to find out whether what they know to be the case is the case.
What was that test of your existance again? The one which could test the knowledge of your own existance. I remember now: "I'm xrayable therefore I am"
quote:
What is that pattern? How do we test that pattern? What test shows us that the pattern was created by divine rather than non-divine methods.
Your shifting goalposts here. The question involved how do I test. And the answer remains the same - no test required. No more so that tests of my existance.
Perish the thought of having to devise a test of my existance. Luckily no one asks that kind of silly question around here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by jar, posted 11-24-2007 8:30 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by jar, posted 11-24-2007 9:02 PM iano has not replied
 Message 141 by ringo, posted 11-24-2007 11:25 PM iano has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 140 of 149 (436274)
11-24-2007 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by iano
11-24-2007 8:58 PM


Re: You still have not answered the question
Well this has gone on long enough. The audience can read the thread and make their own judgment about whether or not you have addressed the issue.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 8:58 PM iano has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 141 of 149 (436295)
11-24-2007 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by iano
11-24-2007 8:58 PM


Re: You still have not answered the question
iano writes:
Can you imagine the sheer waste of time if everyone went around devising tests to find out whether what they know to be the case is the case.
Of course, sane people do test what they (think they) know every day.
Sane people don't blythely say, "I know my brakes work." At the first sign of a possible malfunction, they get somebody else to test them. Refusing to test or to even consider the need for testing is an invitation to disaster.
The greater the risk, the greater the need for testing. Why take the chance that your revelations are delusion? Is your faith so weak that you're afraid to test it?

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 8:58 PM iano has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 142 of 149 (436348)
11-25-2007 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by iano
11-24-2007 8:09 PM


Re: Don't think you can palm the pea
quote:
Unless you trust your tools you cannot tell what is real from what is fanatasy. You do know what is real and what is fantasy Schraf?
Concering this specific question:
How do we tell the difference between a genuine divine experience and and imagined one?
No, I can't tell the difference, and neither can you. Nobody can.
Oh, wait, you said that you can.
How did you, exactly?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 8:09 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by iano, posted 11-25-2007 9:10 AM nator has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 143 of 149 (436351)
11-25-2007 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by nator
11-25-2007 8:48 AM


Re: Don't think you can palm the pea
Schraf writes:
Oh, wait, you said that you can. How did you, exactly?
Tell the difference between a real divine experience and a fantasy divine experience? I've already told you - in the same way as I tell the difference between any real experience and any fantasy experience. In the same way that you tell the difference between a real experience and a fantasy one. I assume it is real. You assume it is real.
quote:
It's not the tools that determine what is real and what is fantasy. It is the person who calibrates them and decides which ones to apply to a situation. It's always the person at root. Them and their assumptions.
If you employ a tool to a particular situation in order to decide then it is you using the tool and you assuming this tool is a useful one in deciding. Your assumptions at root decide what is real.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by nator, posted 11-25-2007 8:48 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by nator, posted 11-25-2007 3:16 PM iano has not replied
 Message 146 by Granny Magda, posted 11-25-2007 7:05 PM iano has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 144 of 149 (436396)
11-25-2007 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by iano
11-25-2007 9:10 AM


Re: Don't think you can palm the pea
quote:
Tell the difference between a real divine experience and a fantasy divine experience? I've already told you - in the same way as I tell the difference between any real experience and any fantasy experience. In the same way that you tell the difference between a real experience and a fantasy one. I assume it is real. You assume it is real.
Well, no that's not at all what I do.
If my phone rang and the person on the other end identified themselves as my husband, and I recognized the voice as his and my phone showed me that the incoming call was one of his numbers, I would have enough information to know it was, in fact, him.
If my phone rang and the person on the other end identified themselves as George W. Bush, I would need quite a lot more information to verify that the person calling me was, in fact, George W. Bush.
I can investigate the authenticity of the person claiming to be George W. Bush in various ways that don't just originate inside my head or require me to "look within my heart" or similar. Anybody can examine my evidence about the caller and independently verify if the caller is really Bush or a prankster. I could believe it really was Bush even if it really wasn't, and even if it was never investigated or the truth never determined. The reality is independent of my beliefs or desires.
Those are the tools I use to determine fantasy from reality in this example.
How about you?
How do you tell the difference between a genuine encounter with the divine and an imagined one?
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by iano, posted 11-25-2007 9:10 AM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by jar, posted 11-25-2007 3:43 PM nator has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 145 of 149 (436408)
11-25-2007 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by nator
11-25-2007 3:16 PM


Re: Don't think you can palm the pea
The key thing is that the tests you use can be used by anyone. They do not depend on some Special Pleading. For example, I could compare a recording of the phone conversation with a recording of your husband speaking and determine with a high confidence level if it was the same voice, EVEN if I had never met your husband. I could check independently the origin and destination of the call. I could independently check the physical location of you and your husband during the time period of the call. I could independently determine the duration of the call.
It is that independence of confirmation that is important and that iano refuses (well, let's face it, is unable) to address.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by nator, posted 11-25-2007 3:16 PM nator has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 146 of 149 (436433)
11-25-2007 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by iano
11-25-2007 9:10 AM


Re: Don't think you can palm the pea
Hello there iano,
I don't mean to sound rude, but what about cases of psychotic delusion? I had a friend who, during a psychotic episode, thought that hospital staff were robots trying to kill him. I think that in the cold light of day, we can all agree that the medical staff were not robots (well, maybe one or two of them), but at the time he sincerely believed it to be true. In fact he assumed that it was true, thus passing your reality test. Simply assuming you are correct is no way to judge an objective reality, at least not if you wish others to take you seriously. Wouldn't you be more in honest in admitting that you have no certainties and take the veracity of any divine experience on faith alone?

Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by iano, posted 11-25-2007 9:10 AM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by nator, posted 11-26-2007 7:35 AM Granny Magda has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 147 of 149 (436517)
11-26-2007 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Granny Magda
11-25-2007 7:05 PM


Re: Don't think you can palm the pea
quote:
I don't mean to sound rude, but what about cases of psychotic delusion? I had a friend who, during a psychotic episode, thought that hospital staff were robots trying to kill him. I think that in the cold light of day, we can all agree that the medical staff were not robots (well, maybe one or two of them), but at the time he sincerely believed it to be true. In fact he assumed that it was true, thus passing your reality test. Simply assuming you are correct is no way to judge an objective reality, at least not if you wish others to take you seriously. Wouldn't you be more in honest in admitting that you have no certainties and take the veracity of any divine experience on faith alone?
My mother recently underwent heart surgery and suffered from post operative/anasthesia psychosis.
For several days, until the drugs all got out of her system, she was convinced that all of the ICU and floor staff at the hospital were showing all of her records to all the other patients, and that she overheard all sorts of dastardly deeds against her being planned by the RN's at the nurses station a few yards away, and that she had to hide her face becasue the government agents were going to see her.
She was in general incredibly paranoid, and became incredibly angry and verbally abusive to anyone who didn't sit and listen to everything she said about it as though they believed her 100%.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Granny Magda, posted 11-25-2007 7:05 PM Granny Magda has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 148 of 149 (436942)
11-28-2007 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by nator
11-23-2007 8:39 PM


Re: faith in personal experience
It is choice whether you believe or not. It cannot be proved either way. I choose to believe the experience as described and that it has had a profound affect on his life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by nator, posted 11-23-2007 8:39 PM nator has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 149 of 149 (451495)
01-27-2008 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
02-16-2004 4:23 AM


BIGGER BUMP FOR DAMEEVA
I am posting this message to the originator of each thread in which I have participated. I apologize to those I have not been able to respond to. Living a double life (see below) even on a forum is very time consuming. I have had a wonderful experience and aplogize for my deceitful behaviour.
RULE 9. Do not participate as more than one ID. You may change your user ID by going to your Profile Page and creating a new alias.
I have been participating as two identities.
In my defense, I created two identities because I felt I needed some moral support. I also thought it would help to promote some points that I could not do alone.
In view of this obvious breaking of a clearly defined rule, there can be no excuses, no claims of innocence because the truth is:
I did not read the rules.
I prefer to judge myself and implement the consequences myself. I prefer to be my own judge and jury. In this case the punishment is a life time ban. I will retire DAMEEVA as from 1.2.08 (just to give myself time to pack my bags) unless a higher authority decides otherwise, in which case authority has the final say.
I have thoroughly enjoyed this forum and have learned a lot that otherwise I would not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 02-16-2004 4:23 AM Phat has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024