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Author Topic:   Atheism isn't a belief?
DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4754 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 301 of 329 (238370)
08-29-2005 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by iano
08-29-2005 6:20 AM


Re: The final countdown....
iano writes:
Athiesm is not 'lack of belief in God' - period. It is 'lack of belief' + 'some other belief'.
And theists would have 'the presence of a belief in a god or gods' + 'some other belief', as you cannot only believe in (a) god/gods. The best you could do is believe that you exist, that you're a god, and that you're the only thing that exists; and the belief that everything else is an illusion would come along for the ride; which is 2 beliefs -- a belief in illusions, and a belief that everything else is one.
Kinda pointless to add all that other stuff on, though; as the defining characteristic of a theist is that their belief structure incorporates gods. The fact that there's more to the structure than that is irrelevant.
iano writes:
The trickery of trying to say athiesm is not a position that "believes there is no God" but is a position the "lacks belief in God" is somewhat undermined by the fact the latter statement cannot be falsified or verified. Thus it is a statement about nothing at all.
Neither can be falsified or verified. Same goes for your assertion that you believe in God. However, as a person is in position to know what's going on in their heads, unless there's a reason to believe they're lying, it's accepted that what they say is going on in their heads is actually going on in their heads.
iano writes:
Every athiest in fact believes something (at least every atheist on here does), but just not God. Athiesm is thus a belief system.
Neither atheism nor theism are belief structures.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by iano, posted 08-29-2005 6:20 AM iano has not replied

DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4754 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 302 of 329 (238378)
08-29-2005 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by iano
08-29-2005 8:27 AM


Re: Theism is not a Belief Either
iano writes:
Materialism, determinism, humanism, scientism - are a couple that spring to mind. I imagine any belief which commoents on the question of 'where it all came from' - but which exclude God as the reason.
Weak atheists don't exclude gods from all explanations -- they simply don't yet have reason to believe that any explanation that uses gods is right.
The difficulty here seems to be that you're only seeing explanations for which there's sufficient evidence to believe they're true. Lightning, earthquakes, volcanoes, the diversity of species -- all have naturalistic explanations with sufficient evidence behind them to believe they're true.
Try one that doesn't, though. Dark Matter.
What is it? MACHOs? WIMPs? One of the other candidates? Damned if I know. There's not enough evidence to say what it is. Now, if you want to say that Dark Matter consists of the bodies of gods floating around in space, you can go right ahead. However, just as I lack a belief that Dark Matter is MACHOs or WIMPs, I lack a belief that it's gods. I don't lack a belief because I believe it's something else -- I lack a belief because I don't have any beliefs regarding what Dark Matter is. I haven't a clue.
If you provide evidence that Dark Matter consists of gods floating around in space -- evidence which excludes the other possible candidates -- I'll believe that Dark Matter consists of gods floating around in space. If you provide evidence that it's MACHOs -- evidence which excludes the other possible candidates -- I'll believe it's MACHOs. If you provide evidence that it's WIMPs -- evidence which excludes the other possible candidates -- I'll believe it's WIMPs. However, until I have evidence which allows me to make a determination, I make none. What Dark Matter is is indeterminate.
Get it? NO BELIEFS REGARDING WHAT DARK MATTER IS. It's not 'a belief in something other than gods' -- it's no beliefs whatsoever concerning what Dark Matter is. I haven't a clue, and I have no problems saying that I haven't a clue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by iano, posted 08-29-2005 8:27 AM iano has not replied

LauraG
Inactive Member


Message 303 of 329 (238438)
08-29-2005 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by iano
08-29-2005 6:20 AM


Re: The final countdown....
Iano, why is it so important to you to think that atheism is a belief in the first place? Is it that you feel someone who lacks a belief, even one opposed to yours undermines your belief's validity somehow?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by iano, posted 08-29-2005 6:20 AM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by tsig, posted 08-29-2005 11:19 PM LauraG has replied

tsig
Member (Idle past 2908 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 304 of 329 (238453)
08-29-2005 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by LauraG
08-29-2005 10:07 PM


Re: The final countdown....
Iano, why is it so important to you to think that atheism is a belief in the first place? Is it that you feel someone who lacks a belief, even one opposed to yours undermines your belief's validity somehow?
Maybe a new thread?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by LauraG, posted 08-29-2005 10:07 PM LauraG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by LauraG, posted 08-29-2005 11:51 PM tsig has not replied

LauraG
Inactive Member


Message 305 of 329 (238464)
08-29-2005 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by tsig
08-29-2005 11:19 PM


Re: The final countdown....
DHA writes:
Maybe a new thread?
Why not?
Moderators?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by tsig, posted 08-29-2005 11:19 PM tsig has not replied

Physrho
Inactive Member


Message 306 of 329 (238465)
08-29-2005 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Trump won
08-16-2005 9:17 PM


I think it's both
Atheism is a disbelief in any supreme being responsible for all creation (God) but a belief that there is no (GOD). I think they are a bit confused because who do they accredit there own existence?
It must have come from something greater, no?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Trump won, posted 08-16-2005 9:17 PM Trump won has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by LauraG, posted 08-30-2005 1:10 AM Physrho has replied
 Message 312 by PurpleYouko, posted 08-30-2005 10:16 AM Physrho has not replied

LauraG
Inactive Member


Message 307 of 329 (238474)
08-30-2005 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 306 by Physrho
08-29-2005 11:58 PM


Re: I think it's both
Physrho writes:
I think they are a bit confused because who do they accredit there own existence? It must have come from something greater, no?
Yup. Greater indeed. Nature!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Physrho, posted 08-29-2005 11:58 PM Physrho has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by Physrho, posted 08-30-2005 1:33 AM LauraG has replied

Physrho
Inactive Member


Message 308 of 329 (238479)
08-30-2005 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 307 by LauraG
08-30-2005 1:10 AM


Re: I think it's both
To whom do you accredit the laws of Nature? Is there a beginning of accrediting? My answer would be No, Somthing or perhaps som-nonthing must have always existed. If you think that's illogical. Than your own existence is illogical. My God is Eternal. Meaning he had no Beginning He is everlasting. And so is the something greater of something greater of something greater of something greater.... Eternity has no beginning, nor end.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by LauraG, posted 08-30-2005 1:10 AM LauraG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by LauraG, posted 08-30-2005 2:17 AM Physrho has replied

LauraG
Inactive Member


Message 309 of 329 (238483)
08-30-2005 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 308 by Physrho
08-30-2005 1:33 AM


Re: I think it's both
Physrho writes:
To whom do you accredit the laws of Nature?
If I were to accredit the laws of nature, I surely wouldn't pick something supernatural to accredit them to.
Physrho writes:
Is there a beginning of accrediting?
Is there a beginning of existence?
Physrho writes:
My answer would be No, Somthing or perhaps som-nonthing must have always existed. If you think that's illogical. Than your own existence is illogical.
Nice, broad statement. Back it up, please. If I were you, I'd start with something like "It's my opinion that..."
Physrho writes:
My God is Eternal. Meaning he had no Beginning He is everlasting. And so is the something greater of something greater of something greater of something greater.... Eternity has no beginning, nor end.
...and you're entitled to your beliefs, but why do some people have such a difficult time understanding that other people don't necessarily need a belief system structured according to theirs? Fact is some people have a belief in a god, some don't. Is it really that difficult to accept?
Evangelization is bad enough without the rather transparent attempts at sneakiness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Physrho, posted 08-30-2005 1:33 AM Physrho has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by Physrho, posted 08-30-2005 5:05 AM LauraG has not replied
 Message 311 by Physrho, posted 08-30-2005 5:11 AM LauraG has replied

Physrho
Inactive Member


Message 310 of 329 (238502)
08-30-2005 5:05 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by LauraG
08-30-2005 2:17 AM


Re: I think it's both
I apologize Laura, I did say that "my God" is Eternal. I did not mean to impress or attempt to convert you in any way. Yes, It is my opinion, and that's my belief. Though I'm curious what natural process do you accredit the laws of nature to? Why is there anything existing at all? Do anything have to exist? Why was there something and not nothing? I choose to say that Someone greater beyond my comprehension (the infinite) is responsible. Why is there gravity? Did know how to make it or how to create an entire universe? Is it for things to come from nothing? Not in materialistic logic. Though I assume that you're a materialist and only believe in what you can see. Well from my understanding all material we see can be reduced to literally nothing. From molecules to Atoms to Electrons, neutrons, and protons, to quarks, and then to photons, from photons we hypothesize particles and wavelenghts, and from wavelengths we have nothing. Absolutely nothing as in to base matter from. Does that make sense to you? It does to me. There is nothing natural about it. Science has stepped into the Supernatural.
This is where and why quantum physics has been developed. Now it's my opinion that we've stepped into the Spiritual. We don't hear much about Quantum Theory because it involves questions that we can perhaps never answer. An idea? It's my opinion this idea could be (information). But where does this information come from? There must be a source for this information. Fortunately, we're narrowing the gap between the physical and spiritual. Quantum theory attempts to that all things come from this non-material information. So to sum this up, everything you see, smell, touch, taste, feel, and sense is actually a matterless unity held together by this information being, in my opinion, the word of God. (John 1:1-14) (Genesis 1:1 - 31) His command. In brief, (John 1:1-14)explains that: In the beginning was the , and the was with God, and the was God. It also tells us that "all things were made by him" (his Word, God himself). Continuing (Genesis 1:1-31) demonstrates how God spoke things into existance. Not suprisingly, the first thing God spoke into existance was light.(Genesis 1:3) "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light." What science has found is that all matter is made of light(photons->patricles->wavelengths->supernatural). All things are made from light. Though it takes faith to believe or not believe in things. I respect your faith in naturalism. I am assured in my own faith in the Word of God.
(1) The Hidden Face of God, Gerald Schroeder
pg. 4.(paraphrased)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by LauraG, posted 08-30-2005 2:17 AM LauraG has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by PurpleYouko, posted 08-30-2005 10:30 AM Physrho has replied

Physrho
Inactive Member


Message 311 of 329 (238503)
08-30-2005 5:11 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by LauraG
08-30-2005 2:17 AM


Re: I think it's both
I apologize Laura, I did say that "my God" is Eternal. I did not mean to impress or attempt to convert you in any way. Yes, It is my opinion, and that's my belief. Though I'm curious what natural process do you accredit the laws of nature to? Why is there anything existing at all? Does anything have to exist? Why was there something and not nothing? I choose to say that Someone greater beyond my comprehension (the infinite) is responsible. Why is there gravity? Did nothing know how to make it or how to create an entire universe? Is it natural for things to come from nothing? Not in materialistic logic. Though I assume that you're a materialist and only believe in what you can see. Well from my understanding all material we see can be reduced to literally nothing. From molecules to Atoms to Electrons, neutrons, and protons, to quarks, and then to photons, from photons we hypothesize particles and wavelenghts, and from wavelengths we have nothing. Absolutely nothing as in no-thing to base matter from. Does that make sense to you? It does to me. There is nothing natural about it. Science has stepped into the Supernatural.
This is where and why quantum physics has been developed. Now it's my opinion that we've stepped into the Spiritual. We don't hear much about Quantum Theory because it involves questions that we can perhaps never answer. "Yet, today when Universities around the world look into this non-material conundrum, they say that it is actually an expression of an Idea."(1) An idea? It's my opinion this idea could be (information). But where does this information come from? There must be a source for this information. Fortunately, we're narrowing the gap between the physical and spiritual. Quantum theory attempts to unify that all things come from this non-material information. So to sum this up, everything you see, smell, touch, taste, feel, and sense is actually a matterless unity held together by this information being, in my opinion, the word of God. (John 1:1-14) (Genesis 1:1 - 31) His command. In brief, (John 1:1-14)explains that: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. It also tells us that "all things were made by him" (his Word, God himself). Continuing (Genesis 1:1-31) demonstrates how God spoke things into existance. Not suprisingly, the first thing God spoke into existance was light.(Genesis 1:3) "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light." What science has found is that all matter is made of light(photons->patricles->wavelengths->supernatural). All things are made from light. Though it takes faith to believe or not believe in things. I respect your faith in naturalism. I am assured in my own faith in the Word of God.
(1) The Hidden Face of God, Gerald Schroeder
pg. 4.(paraphrased)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by LauraG, posted 08-30-2005 2:17 AM LauraG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by LauraG, posted 08-30-2005 12:26 PM Physrho has not replied

PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 312 of 329 (238560)
08-30-2005 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 306 by Physrho
08-29-2005 11:58 PM


Re: I think it's both
It must have come from something greater, no?
Right. That would be NO. Why should it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Physrho, posted 08-29-2005 11:58 PM Physrho has not replied

PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 313 of 329 (238563)
08-30-2005 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 310 by Physrho
08-30-2005 5:05 AM


Re: I think it's both
Hi Physrho
All good questions. Many have no definite answers as yet. Scientists are constantly working to find those answers.
Maybe you are right that science is beginning to cross into the spiritual and that really agrees with my own views that there is intrinsically no difference between the physical and the spiritual and that any "barrier" is just percieved by the individual.
I respect your faith in naturalism. I am assured in my own faith in the Word of God.
Here, though is where I diverge from your views. I do not see any way that it requires faith to say "I don't know". Atheists (as a group)have no faith in naturalism as faith requires belief without proof. As a scientist (who happens to NOT believe in God) I have no problem at all with simply saying "I don't know" when faced with these tricky questions. Maybe one day I will find out. Maybe I won't.
Either way I draw no conclusions beyond the available evidence so where exactly is the "faith"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by Physrho, posted 08-30-2005 5:05 AM Physrho has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by Physrho, posted 08-30-2005 12:35 PM PurpleYouko has replied

LauraG
Inactive Member


Message 314 of 329 (238582)
08-30-2005 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 311 by Physrho
08-30-2005 5:11 AM


Re: I think it's both
Physrho writes:
I apologize Laura, I did say that "my God" is Eternal. I did not mean to impress or attempt to convert you in any way. Yes, It is my opinion, and that's my belief."
No problem, Physrho. What impresses me, though, is that your first couple of posts in this thread express a disbelief that some people don't need to credit their existence, or the universe's, to a god. That's obviously not so, so I keep wondering why people with a religious belief have such a hard time accepting other simply don't have them?
Physrho writes:
Though I'm curious what natural process do you accredit the laws of nature to?
I don't. I'll be very happy when we find an explanation, but I don't make the jump from "we don't know" to "it must be god". If anything, I expect a natural explanation for natural phenomena.
Physrho writes:
Why is there anything existing at all?
Why does there need to be a reason?
Physrho writes:
Does anything have to exist?
I don't know. Right now, I'd say there's no particular reason anything exists. I'm happy with the fact that it does... and we do... and I try to do the best I can with that.
Physrho writes:
Why was there something and not nothing?
Was there? Why not 'nothing'? It's not a dirty word, you know.
Physrho writes:
I choose to say that Someone greater beyond my comprehension (the infinite) is responsible.
Exactly. That's a choice you make in the face of those questions you have. You choose to believe in god because you don't have certain answers yet. Let me ask you this, tough: As answers have become available to you, have you found yourself understanding through nature things you used to credit to god?
Physrho writes:
Why is there gravity? Did nothing know how to make it or how to create an entire universe? Is it natural for things to come from nothing?
I'd say it's only to be expected that the natural have a natural cause.
Physrho writes:
Not in materialistic logic. Though I assume that you're a materialist and only believe in what you can see.
Not really. I prefer evidence over observation.
Physrho writes:
Well from my understanding all material we see can be reduced to literally nothing. From molecules to Atoms to Electrons, neutrons, and protons, to quarks, and then to photons, from photons we hypothesize particles and wavelenghts, and from wavelengths we have nothing. Absolutely nothing as in no-thing to base matter from. Does that make sense to you? It does to me. There is nothing natural about it. Science has stepped into the Supernatural.
You're pretty impatient, aren't you?
...and I think science, as is expected as it advances, has stepped into new and exotic territory. Exotic, not supernatural.
Physrho writes:
This is where and why quantum physics has been developed. Now it's my opinion that we've stepped into the Spiritual. We don't hear much about Quantum Theory because it involves questions that we can perhaps never answer. "Yet, today when Universities around the world look into this non-material conundrum, they say that it is actually an expression of an Idea."(1) An idea? It's my opinion this idea could be (information). But where does this information come from? There must be a source for this information. Fortunately, we're narrowing the gap between the physical and spiritual. Quantum theory attempts to unify that all things come from this non-material information. So to sum this up, everything you see, smell, touch, taste, feel, and sense is actually a matterless unity held together by this information being, in my opinion, the word of God. (John 1:1-14) (Genesis 1:1 - 31) His command. In brief, (John 1:1-14)explains that: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. It also tells us that "all things were made by him" (his Word, God himself). Continuing (Genesis 1:1-31) demonstrates how God spoke things into existance. Not suprisingly, the first thing God spoke into existance was light.(Genesis 1:3) "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light." What science has found is that all matter is made of light(photons->patricles->wavelengths->supernatural). All things are made from light. Though it takes faith to believe or not believe in things.
You're arguing from disbelief and, to be honest, that's your prerrogative, but it doesn't make your argument universally right, and that's the reason your belief system doesn't apply to everyone.
Physrho writes:
I respect your faith in naturalism. I am assured in my own faith in the Word of God."
I don't have faith in naturalism. I don't have to. Nature puts everything out there in a fashion that allows it to be observed, tested and understood, as opposed to the supernatural, which defies any test. Understanding the natural requires no faith. Trying to make sense of the supernatural, on the other hand, does. In spades.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by Physrho, posted 08-30-2005 5:11 AM Physrho has not replied

Physrho
Inactive Member


Message 315 of 329 (238587)
08-30-2005 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by PurpleYouko
08-30-2005 10:30 AM


Re: I think it's both
Well, I think you're right. You probably don't Have any faith. My response was to Laura. Who claimed to be an atheist and yes claimed that she was an atheist. About these "tricky questions," I'd say these questions are fundimentally what drive scientists, and probably even you. Also, I agree in your belief that there is really nothing material that does not come from a spiritual basis. My god is a spirit (John 4:24). My God is also invisible (Col 1:15).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by PurpleYouko, posted 08-30-2005 10:30 AM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by PurpleYouko, posted 08-30-2005 12:48 PM Physrho has replied

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