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Author Topic:   "Evidence and Faith"
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 303 (398737)
05-02-2007 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
04-26-2007 8:52 AM


yes the world was created.
There is absolute proof that the world was created.
It exists.
The question is "How was the world created?"
And we are learning more and more each day about that question.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 04-26-2007 8:52 AM riVeRraT has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 11 of 303 (398860)
05-02-2007 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by riVeRraT
05-02-2007 10:08 PM


The creation of the bible, and of God, is saying that He made something from nothing. This is what creation science is trying to find out and prove.
That of course is impossible and pointless.
We can learn how the Earth was created, in fact we already have a pretty good idea of that. We can find examples of planet forming areas. Unfortunately we will not live long enough to actually observe the whole process but will likely be able to observe many of the stages.
So we do know that the Earth was created.
I do not even agree with this. I feel that if you were truely performing creation science, you would be looking for unbiased evidence that the world was created, doesn't matter by who.
As soon as you put the "by" in there, you stop doing science.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by riVeRraT, posted 05-02-2007 10:08 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by riVeRraT, posted 05-02-2007 10:54 PM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 18 of 303 (398976)
05-03-2007 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by riVeRraT
05-03-2007 8:46 AM


Rat, the problem is that we can observe the various stages in the process of creating planets going on today.
We can see new stars being born.
We can see accretion disks.
We are beginning to really understand the process of planetary creation.
But you are asking if there can be proof of supernatural intervention.
The answer to that is "NO!"

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by riVeRraT, posted 05-03-2007 8:46 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by riVeRraT, posted 05-04-2007 9:42 AM jar has replied
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 05-04-2007 10:11 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 24 of 303 (399164)
05-04-2007 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by riVeRraT
05-04-2007 9:42 AM


Why must you diminish and belittle GOD?
If you are aware of that much of "HowGodDidit" why must you continue to place limits on GOD and turn Her into some back yard conjurer?
Why limit creation to "the world?"
Why do you always belittle GOD?
Science is but the search for the answers to "HowGodDidit™"

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by riVeRraT, posted 05-04-2007 9:42 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 05-04-2007 10:13 AM jar has not replied
 Message 31 by riVeRraT, posted 05-04-2007 10:22 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 28 of 303 (399170)
05-04-2007 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
05-04-2007 10:11 AM


Re: If the proof is in the pudding, who made the pudding?
Words are human inventions. One could argue that God created everything and that we are simply recreators. (Meaning that there is nothing new under the Sun) In other words, when a human invents something, the idea already existed. There is no such thing as an original thought. Perhaps the only original thought could be thought of by (The Origin) That speaks of a Creator. Again.
Sorry but a totally inane statement of the "Anything conceivable school of theology".
It is totally irrelevant whether anything new is possible. If it is new to you, it is new.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 05-04-2007 10:11 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 05-04-2007 10:23 AM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 36 of 303 (399180)
05-04-2007 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by riVeRraT
05-04-2007 10:22 AM


Re: Why must you diminish and belittle GOD?
How do I tell my Pastor that creation science is full of it?
And if it is not full of it, then what should I tell him about it.
I want to do that with authority.
The issue is with you wanting "Authority."
Unfortunately, the solution is reason not authority, and I am not at all sure that your Pastor is open to reason.
Creation Science is full of it because it starts with the conclusion.
Creation Science operates on the exact same theology as the Biblical Literalists. Any conceivable answer is okay if it meets their needs, whether it is true or not.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by riVeRraT, posted 05-04-2007 10:22 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by riVeRraT, posted 05-07-2007 9:25 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 43 of 303 (399679)
05-07-2007 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by riVeRraT
05-07-2007 9:25 AM


Creation Scientists are just frauds.
I know this has been argued a thousand times over here, but doesn't many sciences start with a conclusion?
No!
It is always a question.
If this is true then ...?
So, how do I show this to my Pastor?
I think one of the best ways to do that is by showing your Pastor how Biblical Creationist leaders LIE!.
Use their material on radiometric dating and show your Pastor how they palmed the pea, not once but many times.
Look at Message 76 and the message I am responding to there, as well as JonF's reply to me.
That is a simple, clear and easily understood example and typical of their tactics.
Creation Scientists are simply frauds and conmen out to get into Christian pocketbooks and wallets.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by riVeRraT, posted 05-07-2007 9:25 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by riVeRraT, posted 05-07-2007 3:51 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 51 of 303 (399747)
05-07-2007 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by riVeRraT
05-07-2007 3:51 PM


Re: Creation Scientists are just frauds.
Come on really. There is nothing wrong with "creation science" other than it is probably labeled wrong, and the people doing it. Otherwise, what is wrong with searching for proof that the world was created?
Of course there is EVERYTHING wrong with "Creation Science" both theologically and scientifically.
From the science perspective, if Creation Science is right then it is pointless to continue doing science or to trust ANY results from science.
If Creation Science is right, the some magic pixie can step in at anytime and nullify, abrogate or suspend natural laws of physics, chemistry or any other field.
It becomes impossible to tell if the results you see are due to the laws of physics or the whim of the pixie.
From a theological point of view it is even worse. Creation Science reduces GOD to just another natural force. If we can find "proof that the world was created" then God is just another force like the weak nuclear force, something to be examined, something with limits and known characteristics.
Creation Science is not just bad science, it is even worse theology.
If you were doing science correctly, and you were totally wrong, at least what you found could be used in other areas of science. If it was done correctly.
It is impossible to do Creation Science correctly.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by riVeRraT, posted 05-07-2007 3:51 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by riVeRraT, posted 05-07-2007 8:01 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 56 of 303 (399761)
05-07-2007 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by riVeRraT
05-07-2007 8:01 PM


Re: Creation Scientists are just frauds.
I thought science was niether right or wrong.
Not right or wrong in a moral sense, but in the sense of being a relevant procedure, accurate process or effective.
And in this instance we are talking about the process and basic assumption that answers can be found.
The basic premise of Creation Science is that some outside force stepped in and over ruled physical, chemical and biological processes.
"Creation" as opposed to "formation" requires a clause be added to every law; gravity, weak nuclear force, chemical bonding, genetics, that adds "except when the pixie decides that the law or principle should be suspended".
If that is the case then we cannot be sure that objects really will fall, that the tests on the new drug really reflect what we can expect, that a plane will fly, that brakes will work, that what is in the IV is actually blood and not just red Koolaid.
On the other hand, if the universe we see actually formed based on the physics, chemical, biological laws and properties we know and discover, then the question of GOD having a hand in it cannot be shown.
Creation Science can never be anything more than a fraud.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by riVeRraT, posted 05-07-2007 8:01 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by riVeRraT, posted 05-08-2007 9:34 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 67 of 303 (399827)
05-08-2007 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by riVeRraT
05-08-2007 9:34 AM


Re: Creation Scientists are just frauds.
In other words, no miracles....ever?
Certainly no "scientific" miracles.
You are talking about proof and by definition, "miracles" cannot ever be proven.
The most that can ever be said scientifically would be "cause unknown."

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by riVeRraT, posted 05-08-2007 9:34 AM riVeRraT has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 84 of 303 (399915)
05-08-2007 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by riVeRraT
05-08-2007 9:04 PM


Re: Creation Scientists are just frauds.
Okay.
So we have that they are not doing science and that they are practicing bad theology.
What is the up side?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by riVeRraT, posted 05-08-2007 9:04 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by riVeRraT, posted 05-08-2007 9:15 PM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 90 of 303 (399925)
05-08-2007 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by riVeRraT
05-08-2007 9:13 PM


Religious organizations lie.
We know that it was written, now we have to find out why, and if it is true or not, just like writing on the wall of a cave.
We know with a very very high degree of certainty, that there has not been a world-wide flood in at least the last 50 million years or so, certainly not while there were humans of any kind alive.
We know with a very very high degree of certainty, that the Exodus did not happen as described in the Bible.
We know with a very very high degree of certainty, that the Conquest of Canaan did not happen as described in Joshua.
We know with a very very high degree of certainty, that there was no Garden of Eden or Adam and Eve 6000 years ago and that by 6000 years ago modern man was living on EVERY continent except perhaps Antarctica.
Those things are simply not in question.
Religious organizations that teach Young Earth or The Flood or The Conquest of Canaan or The Exodus simply lie.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by riVeRraT, posted 05-08-2007 9:13 PM riVeRraT has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 127 of 303 (400108)
05-10-2007 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by riVeRraT
05-10-2007 10:51 AM


A word of Encouragement.
There is a wonderful exchange between Jesus and Peter in the Bible. As you know they had a long and somewhat stormy relationship. The image we get of Peter is of someone who is really, really close to getting it but that just falls short. He is so convinced in Jesus charisma that for a time, he can even walk on water, yet he denies Jesus three times when he is really called upon.
After the Resurrection Jesus continues to try to help Peter Really Get It but we are left with the feeling that even at the end, Peter still doesn't really understand.
The exchange begins with Jesus asking Peter "Peter, do you love me?"
A simple question and of course, Peter replies "Hell yes Boss, you know I love you."
Jesus replies, "Then feed my sheep."
That is the message.
Peter failed every test. Yet Jesus not only forgave him, Jesus placed him in THE position of authority.
Peter denied even knowing Jesus.
Peter never quite got the Gospel.
But it is really very simple.
Loving GOD is not praise, not worship, not fellowship, not hymns, not even prayer.
Loving GOD is trying to do, even when, like Peter, you fail.
Loving is doing.
Not big things.
Not Bringing the world to Christ.
Not preaching.
Just doing.
Doing little things.
Doing boring things.
Sitting on a hillside watching the sheep in the valley day after boring day.
Slopping the hogs.
Getting the box down from the high shelf for someone.
Squatting on the ground to talk to children.
Returning the grocery cart.
Opening doors for folk that have their hands full.
Saying "good morning".
Feeding the sheep.
It is not the miracles, not the supernatural, not about salvation, but just trying to do your best.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by riVeRraT, posted 05-10-2007 10:51 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by everwondered, posted 05-10-2007 2:39 PM jar has replied
 Message 138 by riVeRraT, posted 05-10-2007 4:44 PM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 132 of 303 (400127)
05-10-2007 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by everwondered
05-10-2007 2:39 PM


Re: A word of Encouragement.
how can Peter not understand the Gospel when they weren't written during Jesus' time on Earth and he wrote one himself?
There are many "Gospels" if you are referring those written documents that are labeled as "Gospels", but I was speaking of the actual message itself.
Does that mean that we should renounce his Gospel in the Church and carefully scrutinize evrything credited to him for fear of our being mislead or decieved?
We should DEFINITELY scrutinize everything. Period!
I thought you became a Pope by accepting and loving God, not by misunderstanding him and his message...
You become a Pope by being elected.
But wait, Peter didn't understand the Gospel, did he?
We don't know if Peter ever wrote a Gospel, there are fragments of what claims to be "The Gospel of Peter" but both the authorship and creation date are uncertain.
The picture though that we get of Peter from the other works is one of someone very close to understanding, but never quite getting it. That is what the exchange recorded between Jesus and Peter is really all about. Jesus is saying, "Peter, you still don't get it. Loving me is in doing, not what you say. If you love me then just go do it. Don't talk about it, do it."
I honestly think that many if not most Christians still don't get it.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by everwondered, posted 05-10-2007 2:39 PM everwondered has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by everwondered, posted 05-10-2007 3:14 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 134 of 303 (400130)
05-10-2007 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by everwondered
05-10-2007 3:14 PM


Re: A word of Encouragement.
And we should scrutinize everything...............but what if we haven't scrutinized enough, could we be wrong?
Of course. That is why you do not stop questioning.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by everwondered, posted 05-10-2007 3:14 PM everwondered has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by everwondered, posted 05-16-2007 2:42 PM jar has replied

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