"Evidence and Faith"

rR wrote: Well, the person praying is praying that God will heal the person. The *researchers* were testing if prayer works, so they asked prayers who often pray for people to add another name to their list and pray for that person. This was most often done through churches, where the prayers were people who regularly pray for people on the church’s prayer list - the name of the people in the study - who had various sicknesses - were added to the prayer lists in many cases. The prayers prayed for them just as they always do, this wasn't like unpracticed prayers just went through the prayer motions and called it prayer. So a Christian can’t pray for a non-Christian to get healthier? Or they can, but their prayers have less power if they do? I’ve never heard that at church. Could you please humor me and repeat my description of how a process that has a subjective beginning and an objective end can be examined? I mean, we both agree that prayer has the subjective beginning, just as, say, psychotherapy or counseling do. Then, all three of them claim to have an objective result - healing, better mental health, etc. The subjective part cannot be tested, the objective part can be tested. Taking a pill is different in that both the beginning and the end parts are objective - unless you are doing a double blind experiment, where half of the people are getting sugar pills without medicine - then, just as in the prayer for healing process, the first part is subjective (they know they took a pill, but don’t know the details of that pill).Do we both agree that medical outcomes - whether they come after pills, psychotherapy, peptalks, prayer, acupuncture, irradiation, or whatever, can be objectively tested? If so, then the subjective nature of the treatment doesn’t matter.Maybe we’ll just have to drop this point. That’s OK, we did have a good discussion on several other topics, and even on this one we got in some good communication here and there. I agree (though of course I read the sentence as follows: ) Thanks (yep, I got in for one more day before the weekend). I have enjoyed it as well, and wanted to thank you for starting it. Take care-Equinox (Jon)

First off, some of the times, people need not tell me, God highlights these things to me. When they do tell me, it is only conformation (bias lol).It is hard to have this conversation with someone that only wants to deal the objective. What I am telling you is subjective. I only wanted to deal with the objective for a very long time.But one thing that has happened to me, after getting to know the Holy Spirit, is that the Holy Spirit, is the Spirit of truth, and ever since then, I am able to discern truth from lies a 1000 times better. I never said they wouldn't.
Many times bad experiences are training, to make you better, an answer to the question, why does God let bad things happen. I don't need to know. Yes, that is why I said it is what is their hearts that count.You could have two people, both serving in a soup kitchen. One is there because they think by doing this "act" it will get them into heaven, the other just wants to help people.It is what is in their hearts that count. Your fruits are relative to where you are in life, and what you have been through.

I did not say that.IF a "Christian" prays for a "non-Christian" for God to heal them, and the non-Christian does not believe that God will heal them, then it is possible that God will not heal them.
Some people get healed because of their faith, others get healed so they would have faith. It's all up to God. There is no science to it. Yes, but not the reasons why. Which means, it doesn't mean anything.Just because people get cured by sugar pills, does not mean that the actual pill is ineffective.

Which is even less reliable. Serial killers often think they have God whispering in their ear too. Boo hoo. If you want an easy time of it, go post on a Christian forum. If we have something objective to deal with, why not use it? We have people's behaviour to show us what's "really" going on inside them, so why bring a subjective element into it? Now that's confirmation bias. (Not to mention hyperbole.) And yet you claim you can discern truth from lies. No it isn't. Both people in the soup kitchen will get to heaven and both for the same reason: they fed the hungry.Jesus made it very clear that what you do counts. What you claim to believe doesn't.What's in your heart is worthless unless it shows in what you do. Nope. The fruits on the tree now are what counts. It doesn't matter if the tree survived six forest fires, three wars, eleven droughts and a box social.Have you read what the Bible says about fruits at all?

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Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

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No visible (i.e. useful) fruit --> cast into the fire. Pretty @#$%ing clear imagery.Edited by Ringo, : Spellink.

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That may or may not be true.At the end of the day (or more precisly, at the end of your life) there is only one thing on your mind. OMG no, I read a few, and they are worse than here, I'll stay here for now. Why can't it be both?
Would you agree that certain people have a gift at reading others?
Where do you think that gift comes from?If you were lacking that gift, and then in the snap of a finger, you thought you heard from God, and then you suddenly got that gift, wouldn't that raise an eyebrow? Truth from lies, is on the outside, what is on their hearts is on the inside. Understanding why they lie, or tell the truth, comes from their hearts, which sometimes gets revealed to me. Discernment between the two was also increased. But you posted the verse yourself. Not everyone who says Lord, Lord will get into heaven.20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'By their fruits.What I see in this verse is that even though they drove out demons, and performed miracles, which by some standard could be considered "good fruits" are not going to heaven.From bible.cc, here are some commentaries on that verse: Matt7:21-22

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7:21 {7} Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

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(7) Even the best gifts that exist are nothing without godliness.

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7:21 Not every one, etc. The Lord has shown that the entrance into the kingdom is through the strait gate. He now shows more particularly what is needed to enter. Certain ones are described who cannot enter in. Not every one implies that some who say, Lord, Lord, etc. shall enter in. Those enter

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that doeth the will of my Father. No one can be a citizen of the kingdom who does not obey the King.

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7:21 Not every one - That is, no one that saith, Lord, Lord - That makes a mere profession of me and my religion, shall enter - Whatever their false teachers may assure them to the contrary: He that doth the will of my Father - as I have now declared it. Observe: every thing short of this is only saying, Lord, Lord. Luke 6:46.

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7:21-29 Christ here shows that it will not be enough to own him for our Master, only in word and tongue. It is necessary to our happiness that we believe in Christ, that we repent of sin, that we live a holy life, that we love one another. This is his will, even our sanctification. Let us take heed of resting in outward privileges and doings, lest we deceive ourselves, and perish eternally, as multitudes do, with a lie in our right hand. Let every one that names the name of Christ, depart from all sin. There are others, whose religion rests in bare hearing, and it goes no further; their heads are filled with empty notions. These two sorts of hearers are represented as two builders. This parable teaches us to hear and do the sayings of the Lord Jesus: some may seem hard to flesh and blood, but they must be done. Christ is laid for a foundation, and every thing besides Christ is sand. Some build their hopes upon worldly prosperity; others upon an outward profession of religion. Upon these they venture; but they are all sand, too weak to bear such a fabric as our hopes of heaven. There is a storm coming that will try every man's work. When God takes away the soul, where is the hope of the hypocrite? The house fell in the storm, when the builder had most need of it, and expected it would be a shelter to him. It fell when it was too late to build another. May the Lord make us wise builders for eternity. Then nothing shall separate us from the love of Christ Jesus. The multitudes were astonished at the wisdom and power of Christ's doctrine. And this sermon, ever so often read over, is always new. Every word proves its Author to be Divine. Let us be more and more decided and earnest, making some one or other of these blessednesses and Christian graces the main subject of our thoughts, even for weeks together. Let us not rest in general and confused desires after them, whereby we grasp at all, but catch nothing.

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I am not trying to judge people here, but if you are serving soup, to please yourself only, then you are ignoring God. Maybe that might prevent you from entering heaven?Keep in mind, that I am not saying that serving soup without knowing God is a totally bad thing.And just to go back on what you said about Jesus saying, it is what you do that counts, I agree. You cannot be in Christ, if you are not with Christ, meaning, to follow His ways. It is a constant thing.I do not believe that you get saved once, and then that's it, you are going to heaven. I feel, and so do the people in my church, that being saved is a continuing, growing process. I don't even like the word "saved", but you know what I am talking about. If the tree was burned in a fire, and was unable to produce fruits for a few years, does make it a bad tree? Some trees, are just unable to produce good fruits, for valid reasons. Doesn't make them bad trees.

How could you possibly know what's on somebody else's mind at the end of their life? I don't see any correlation between people who think they can read others and people who can actually "read" others, no. Some people are more skilled than others at reading body language, etc. I don't think those skills settle on them from above, if that's what you mean. If somebody made that claim to me, it would certainly raise a chuckle.Remember, we're trying to talk about evidence here. Empty claims don't really cut it. But the whole "hearts" thing is the question here. All we've heard so far is your claim that you can do some kind of spooky EKG.If you really can "read" people's hearts, where is the evidence of that? The reason the self-proclaimed-prophets and the casters-out-of-demons and the readers-of-hearts don't go to heaven is because their standard of good fruits is wrong.Whosoever feeds the hungry, clothes the naked, visits the prisoner - those are the ones who go to heaven. Those are the good fruits, not the spooky ones.

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Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

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No spookiness mentioned there. That's not what Jesus said. And that doesn't matter. It's the soup that matters. I agree completely. It makes it a useless tree. And we're not talking about having one or two bad seasons. When it's determined that the tree is producing no good fruit, that tree is chopped down and thrown into the fire. You're missing the point of the story. Nobody's "blaming" the tree. The gardener decides whether the tree is more useful living or dead. Without good fruit, it's more useful as firewood.Edited by Ringo, : Spelllling.

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Well I won't say it with 100% certainty, but the possibility is that, we are wondering where we are going, whether it be the grave, hell, or heaven, or the Pink unicorn palace. I don't know if there is one or not, that wasn't my point. Well, I believe all gifts are from above, since He created us (however that happened). But whether they are from above or not, the gift exists, and it may not totally rely on body language, you'll have to be open to that idea if you are truely science minded.I mean what could it have been that made me magically get better at doing it?
(let's assume it did happen for purposes of this discussion, I know you don't know me, and would be taking my word on it)There were many things that happened to me, in the snap of a finger, and you would have had to know me before, and then after. You are only seeing that after, but rest assured, 4 years ago, I would not have bothered to come into this forum, and start talking to you. The evidence of that would be in meeting the friends I have made over the last 4 years. And to ask them what kind of a person I am, and how I care about them.
Then maybe compare that to all my other friends, which btw will all tell you about the outwardly change they witnessed in me 4 years ago. Yes, I agree, but:
Ephesians 4
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.Those verses are very important. Not only do they say that some will be prophets, and so on, but they to work in those gifts, is to get closer to Christ.I am not proclaiming that I am a valid prophet here. I would leave that for you to decide, if I post a prophecy here, and it comes true.
We all have a gift to prophecy, some more than others.
But reading peoples hearts, is not a gift of prophecy, IMO. IT's just seeing people the way God see's me. Not judging them, and loving them, so that I may share the love of Christ with them, and get on to helping them, if I can, and if they let me. Of course the soup matters, as I said, but so does God. Reading this, seems to me that is a basis for all condemnation. It is a foundation for all the "wrong" religions out there.
We all have a path to take. IT took me 38 years before I felt like I knew God a little bit, and while I may have been a "good person" all those years, things are much different now.If people would have given up on me, and more importantly, if God would have given up on me, I would not be in a position to be doing the things I am able to do now.

That's just anecdotal.
It means no more than me telling you that I see orbs flying around my living room. Well, no.

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Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:

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It says that some will have those gifts until we all get closer to Christ. It doesn't say that being gifted brings the gifted closer to Christ. Again, "closer to Christ" doesn't mean something spooky. It means more Christ-like in our actions. Not according to Jesus. Not at the judgement. The judgement is according to what you do, not who you call "Lord, Lord". It's a simple concept. No reason to make it difficult or spooky. More to the point, it makes the spooky side of Christianity wrong.You produce good fruit or you go into the fire. Simple.It doesn't matter if you're an apple tree or a pear tree or a cherry tree. It doesn't matter what's in your heartwood. What matters is what you produce that's useful. Different to you. But Jesus said that God only wants you to be a good person. The question is: Are the "things" you are able to do now really "better" than the things you were doing when you were a "good person"?

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OK, let’s review here. First, I interpreted your first statement above to be saying that healing by prayer may use the power of the Christian faith of the sick Christian (who is the target of the healing prayer). If so, then if the person who is sick isn’t Christian (and hence can’t have Christian faith), then that sick person cannot be healed. (unless you are going to say that any faith - such as that in a non-Christian religion- will work, in which case I’ll question why you’d think such an anti-biblical thing.)It was a logical conclusion from your “healing relies on the faith of the believer, not the person praying” statement that led me to conclude that you don’t think non-Christians can be healed if someone else prays for them to be healed. I seem to be having a difficult time getting a straight answer about any aspect of the prayer-healing issue. Earlier you had mentioned that it is “possible” that the healing was dependant on the faith of the target. Did you mean you think it *is* dependant on that? If so, then my "non-Christian" case is the result. If not, then what did you mean?Or was “possible” just put in because you are wiggling the proposed phenomena around so as to accommodate the evidence that shows that praying for someone doesn’t help them get better? Now we have, in addition, it being “possible” that God will not heal them (if they aren’t Christian). How is that different from if they are Christian, since I think we both agree that they may or may not be healed even if they are Christian? Then, on top of that, a big wiggle statement: “it’s all up to God”.I’m having a hard time distinguishing your description above from “sometimes people get better, and sometimes they don’t, and in all cases I just claim that God is directing it according to his inscrutable plan.” If that’s indeed what you are saying, then how is it different from someone else saying: Or Allah, or Vishnu, or the FSM, or indeed from: I’m trying to get a clear and unambiguous statement about prayer and healing. We both already agree that a person can pray for themselves, and this often gives them more confidence, and hence better healing. At the same time, the effect of people praying for named sick people to get better has been shown over and over to be zero. Those are definitive statements.I mean, if there is no definitive statement you think is accurate, that’s OK - it just sounded like you were claiming that prayer has an effect.Sorry if this sounded aggressive, I’m just trying to sort out the claim, so we can look at it in light of evidence.Have a fun day-Equinox

Sorry ringo, but the relationships I have made over the years are not anecdotal. They are real, and viable. I never said it wasn't all. No, it doesn't. To me it says, using those gifts for Christ, brings you closer. Using our gifts for Christ. So then you will have to define John 3:16, and all the other times He says that the only way is through Him.Just keep in mind, that I do not think you are going to hell for not knowing Christ, or believing in Jesus. [qs]Different to you. But Jesus said that God only wants you to be a good person.[p/qs]So then that goes all the way back to when I said it was all relative.
You are agreeing now? That's my whole point.
Since God has shown me some of His love, I am able to be more effective.
Also, since doing things for Him, many doors have been opened in my life, where I am put into sensitive situations, that I would have handled incorrectly before.
This happens almost on a daily basis now.
You can call it conformation bias, but I was just minding my own business. It is way to obvious for me to even put any thought to it. If I do put thought to it, it is to deny that it is God, and just my own head.

If the person without "Christian faith" is healed, it is so that he may come to know "Christian fiath" or specifically, Jesus. Because there is no straight answer. I do not understand how or why God heals some and not others. I am asking God this all the time.But I have seen healing take place. What the specific rules are, I don't know. That's right, I don't have a definitive statement. But it is good to pray.
If prayer has an effect, I am saying it is possible that it cannot be tested. The bible only gives two ways to test God. One is by tithing, and the other I forgot. Both are in the Old Testament, so I am not even sure they apply anymore, but in my own life, I feel that tithing works. More importantly, I recognize that money is from God.

But that goes against what Jesus himself said on several occasions. Most of the accounts of Jesus miracles are not done to bring people to a state of Faith, but rather out of kindness with no expectation of any return or reward.Look for example at the stories of Jesus feeding multitudes.Jesus speaks to the people, usually for hours on end. It is those lectures that are used to transmit the message and the feeding is only incidental. If the miracle of feeding many with little was for the purpose of conversion, then it would have been far more effective just to put on the fish fry and skip the stump speeches.The miraculous feeding is only known to the cooks, the audience just got the eats.This is also the point he is making in Nazareth, found in Luke 4.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

When you tell us about those relationships, and when that is all the "evidence" that you have about those relationships - yes, it is definitely anecdotal.

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Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

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Believing in Him means doing what He told us to do, not just saying, "I believe." That's exactly what I've been saying. I don't believe Jesus ever claimed to be the "only" way. I'd be glad to discuss that, but I don't think it's on topic here. That depends on what you mean by, "it's all relative". Being a good person is certainly relative to the individual - Donald Trump would have to serve more soup than me to be "good".But we're talking here about faith and evidence. I'm saying that if you don't do something you don't have real faith. I'm saying we will be judged according to what we do, not what's supposedly "in our hearts".What does that have to do with being "relative"? Being "more effective" isn't the issue. Just being effective - by doing, not by "believing" - is the goal. God is the only judge of your effectiveness.

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rR wrote: You know, in discussion with a friend one time, he mentioned that only Christians are kind or good people. All non-Christians are selfish and mean, and only appear kind or good for the moment. He continued that a seemingly good non-Christian only appears good because they are pretending to be kind or good to trick people so they can get some reward, or to make themselves look good. I was a little shocked by this kind of blatant bigotry, and restrained myself to simply, nicely, asking why he thought that.He replied that all goodness comes from God (the Christian God), and that God will only dispense true goodness to a believer, one who is connected to God (it's abundantly clear from bible, espeically the OT, that God does not consider other religions to be acceptable). Otherwise God would be allowing God's true goodness to show in another religion, which would be helping another religion, and Jesus himself said that a house divided against itself cannot stand. Hence, if he sees someone appearing good who isn't a Christian, he knows it's just a sham, while if he sees someone appearing good who is a Christian, that could be authenical, godly goodness.Now, I hope we agree that my friend's view of goodness is deplorable religious bigotry. Further, consider someone saying this to you, rR: Doesn't that feel a little hostile to you? That's why your statement above reads like religious bigotry, and the fact that many religions foster this kind of thinking is probably (IMO) part of the reason why religions lead to such strife. Then isn't it possible that the healings could mean something other than the confirmation of specifically Christianity that you've interpreted them to mea? Perhaps there is a universal God who isn't Christian and answers healing prayers from all religions, if they are sincere, who is not the God of the Bible? Perhaps there is no God, and people simply sometimes get better? Perhaps the simply act of praying helps a person heal themselves? Perhaps the God heals people if those people have read the book of Job and the Song of Songs, but doesn't care about the other books in the Bible? Perhaps.....The possibilities are endless, especially if you haven't figured out the "rules", or even more so, if there are no rules. So I guess I'm wondering how or why you, in your own mind, use the healings to shore up Christian beleif, if you don't see rules? I mean, how is it that you use the healings as evidence of God or Christianity, yet in the same breath say that healings are not an allowed way to test God or Christianity?Have a fun day-Equinox (Jon)
Edited by Equinox, : small fix

Jar, you and I just discussed this question (the purpose for Jesus' miracles according to the stories) on another thread I'm pretty sure. (the synoptics portray it as you say, John portrays the opposite, where Jesus does indeed do miracles for conversion purposes).Based on that discussion, do you think we should avoid saying Jesus' miracles are for either purpose? I mean, if we want to get into a discussion about which source (synoptics vs John) is more reliable, we can, but that quickly leads to a conclusion that brings the existence of the miracles themselves into question, and I'm not sure we want to go there here and now. Have a fun day-Equinox