Steps toward loss and restoration of Salvation

Iano posted this in I'm trying: A stairway to heaven -- Re: Jesus gave directions and I would like to explain my thoughts about this and get his response. To be specific, I would like to start with the nature of Adam in his original state before "sinning", the "fall" of Adam, and the "restoration" of Adam. More specifically, I would like to present data which will attempt to establish that Adam had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit from the very beginning.If this can be agreed upon, I would then like to broaden the discussion outward to encompass humanity's condition in general in order to display that people who do not know Christ can nonetheless be moved by the Holy Spirit toward salvation.A latter part of the discussion might revolve around a careful examination of what scripture and church history say in regards to the "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit -- and who can have this.This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 12-17-2005 03:35 AMThis message has been edited by AdminPhat, 12-17-2005 08:01 AM

Try a new message, in this same topic.This time outline the theme you wish to discuss. A link back to the previous source topic might also be nice.AdminnemooseusAdded by edit: Also, via editing message 1, supply a topic title that reflecte the yet unknown topic theme (as I type this, the topic title is "Response to Iano", which is something I file under "worthless title").This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 12-17-2005 02:22 AM

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Bump...the first post has been editted.Sorry about the vague 1st post Adminnemooseus. I'm a little bit rusty being away for a month or so. I made changes in the 1st post.Do these changes refine the topic and suggested discussion more clearly?

I edited your first post and cleared up a few spelling and grammatical errors.It is now ready for promotion--IMHO. Lets go with Faith/Belief.This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 12-17-2005 08:07 AM

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Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Ok, I guess I'll just start with some small quotes from Iano and myself, then give a few quick links which addresses these questions and then comment on the links in response to Iano's quote. See, here's the thing iano -- the Scriptures do not explicitly state that Adam went to hell. In fact, to the contrary, it appears that Adam was restored to the point of salvation by God, spirtually wounded and capable of dying physically but not necessarilly hell-bound without further transgressions enacted on his own. Therefore, the whole starting point of your "default" premise seems to be flawed.You had also noted that it was impossible for someone who had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to lose this indwelling and therefore go to hell -- essentially stating that Adam had to have no indwelling in the "very beginning" because his having this would have prevented his "fall".I will quote our previous conversation: It doesn't fit in your opinion because -- in my opinion -- it doesn't fit with your theological views. I will now present what many Christian groups believe to be scriptural evidence for the Holy Spirit's indwelling of Adam.Observe the following links: The Holy Spirit, a florilegium of Old Testament texts and some thoughts on them.God’s “breathing upon” Adam was the Holy SpiritChapter 6: The Holy Spirit During the Old Testament AgesI could go on with this, since I'm noting that these same observations are easilly correllated amongst a broad range of Christian denominations, including Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran and Congregational groups.Here's another one from the Catechism of the Catholic Church: I realize that you probably disagree with me in regards to my views on Mary, but do please note that in order for Jesus to be the "new Adam" totally indwelled by the Holy Spirit, it would be proper to conclude that Adam too must have been created with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as well. Even though Adam appears to be formed from the dust whereas Christ is formed from the virgin's womb, both start from a slate of perfection which is due to their individual incarnations with the Spirit's indwelling.This is another article from a different Christian perspective -- and, again, it's not specifically Catholic: The Giving of God's Holy SpiritPlease note that I'm not in agreement with all these links above in regards to the exact, precise nature of the Holy Spirit's working in man -- yet each one from a variety of different denominational perspectives readilly agree that Adam had the Spirit's indwelling from the beginning until his fall.In short, most think it imperative to conclude that when God breathed upon Adam this paralleled Jesus breathing upon his apostles to give them the gift of the Holy Spirit. Many Christians are in agreement on this point and I find it odd that you are arguing that Adam was a "blank slate" at all.Indeed, if Adam was a blank slate then how on earth could he be held accountable for not choosing right from wrong in the first place?Edit: Please note I'm not looking to go any further in this discussion until we can agree on whether Adam had the Holy Spirit's indwelling or not. If we cannot agree on this (and many other Christians do agree with me), then there's really no point in arguing over the finer points or restoration when the Spirit's left.This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 12-18-2005 07:25 AM

Hi Mr. Ex. I gather that this is intended to be mostly a conversation with IanO but since it isn't a Great Debate maybe I can put my two cents worth in? Just to say that I don't see any contradiction between our inheritance of sin through Adam's fall and Adam's having the indwelling Spirit, as the Spirit is given for faith and certainly Eve and no doubt Adam too had faith in the promised Messiah. However, I don't think that Adam DID have the indwelling Spirit although I believe he was saved. Only those born AD have that privilege. But nevertheless many were saved before Christ by trusting in God's promise of the Messiah. It has become an individual thing. In Adam all die, in Christ all are made alive, through faith, so those born in Adam, inheriting original sin, may nevertheless look to Christ -- BC or AD doesn't matter -- and inherit eternal life in Him. I suspect I have some of the theology wrong here, being sure of this but neverthless uncertain as to how to explain clearly that Adam both bequeaths the fallen nature to his progeny and is personally saved. {AbE: Maybe this is clarifying: I'm thinking of it in terms of the way all who are in Christ through faith cannot be certain their own children will be saved. We all bequeath the fallen nature to our children, even those of us who are regenerate in Christ -- original sin is universal but salvation is individual.}This message has been edited by Faith, 12-18-2005 10:34 AM

Hi Faith. It's nice to hear from you again. Actually, although I was primarilly talking to iano, I certainly welcome any feedback and thoughts you might have. So you're saying that someone can have the indwelling of the Spirit and then lose it? I'm not sure what you're agreeing to here. Why not -- and if not then how was he saved without the Spirit's indwelling? See, this is something that I was pointing out to iano as well: I've already quoted many passages in the Hebrew Scriptures which do indicate that the Holy Spirit was not only moving people in the past, but also noting passages which seem to strongly indicate the the Holy Spirit has been indwelling people in the past.For example: Clearly, it seems to me anyway, that this passage indicates that the Holy Spirit was indwelling people well before Christ was born, died and glorified in rising to new life.One could get "picky" and say that there is a difference between a "steadfast spirit", the "Holy Spirit", and a "willing spirit" -- but I think this is a moot point since the "steadfast spirit" and the "willing spirit" are both manifestations of the Holy Spirit at work in them according to the Christian Scriptures.One could also argue that this passage is refering to the future period where Christ will come and bring the restoration. However, in using the word "restore", it implies that the author who wrote Psalm 51:10-12 at one time actually possessed it.It makes little sense for one to request for the restoration of something to oneself if the one requesting for restoration never actually had the thing being sought for restoration in the first place. Consequnetly, Stephen, in the book of Acts seems to indicate that the Holy Spirit was what the Israelites of old were rebelling against... One might note that Stephen's reference to "fathers" is almost certainly understood as "ancestors" in the passage.And the book of Hebrews indicates that it was the Holy Spirit who said the following in Psalm 95:7-11: Consequnetly, Isaiah 63:9-11 says this very same thing, explicitly stating that when man goes against the Holy Spirit God become's their enemy... I too agree with you on this part but for a different reason. Trusting in the promise of the Messiah, in my opinion anyway, is but yet another "evidence" of the Holy Spirit being at work in them in the first place.Or, as the Christian Scriptures clearly state: And, as it is elsewhere noted, faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit -- so it had to be at work well before Christ's death and resurrection or else the Israelite's who did not directly see God's miracles would not have even believed in God in the first place. I still don't see it this way, and I'm fairly sure the Scriptures do not actually back up what you're claiming here. But I'm willing to listen if you feel there are Scriptural passages which clearly indicate that the Holy Spirit was not indwelling people prior to the coming of Christ Again, Scriptural references please. But, as I've said before to you many times in other threads, you also might be right. I've never claimed any type of infallable authority in regards to what I believe -- my church does that for me. However, based on my understanding of the Scriptures in conjunction with what I beleive the Spirit has enabled me to understand, I do not think you are correct on this matter. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Could you explain further?In my opinion the original sin brought "death" to Adam and Eve and all their descendants -- the entire human race. But I think that many conflate Adam and Eve's ability to die with the idea of going to hell.Spiritually speaking, I believe the original sin left humanity spiritually wounded -- but not spiritually dead.And although I believe that humanity is also born spiritually wounded (because their "innate connection" with Christ is impaired), I do not believe that people who are newly born are "by default" going to hell.More things would need to be done on an individual basis before damnation would occur to each individual -- with damnation happening in proportion to how much each individual rejects the motion of the Holy Spirit (there's more to this, but I want to resolve the matter of Adam having the Holy Spirit's indwelling before I go further).This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 12-18-2005 04:43 PM

Ay yi yi. Perhaps I just didn't understand what your topic is exactly. And perhaps I don't know enough theology in this arena to answer you anyway. In any case I'm sorry to say that post is too much for me to try to figure out and answer. Probably it's just that I hadn't been following the earlier conversation with IanO.This message has been edited by Faith, 12-18-2005 05:45 PM

Quick summary: My point is that Adam most likely had the "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit. It would also appear, based on the Hebrew Scriptures, that other people besides Adam also had the Spirit's indwelling -- and that this indwelling took place well before the "incarnation" of Christ.I thought I had already explained (with Phat's assistance) that these specific topics were going to be my starting points right from the beginning.Was there anything I was unclear on?

All I know is that the theology I'm familiar with says the Holy Spirit was poured out to indwell us because of Christ's death, resurrection and ascension. If perhaps He indwelt some pre-Christ it would have been on account of their faith in God, and particularly in God's promise of the Savior to come, but I'm not prepared to argue this theology one way or the other.If I'm understanding what you are saying about Adam, it seems likely to me that Adam WAS indwelt by the Holy Spirit until he disobeyed, but just because he lost this indwelling, it doesn't mean those who are in Christ can lose it, as the New Covenant in His blood guarantees our being indwelt unto eternity.{AbE: another idea is that the human spirit made in the image of God is what Adam had, in its perfect state in which free communion with God could occur. I'll have to read up on the theology of all this though.}This message has been edited by Faith, 12-18-2005 09:57 PM

Yeah, right.

By all means, if you wish to discuss this further please feel free to read up on what you believe. However, I have pointed toward passages of Scripture which do indicate that the Holy Spirit was "indwelling" people prior to Christ's incarnation -- which I think you've kind of agreed was possible?Let me know what you think after you've looked into it further (if you want to pursue this discussion. )My own view is that the Holy Spirit has indeed been indwelling people in the past, starting from Adam right up until present time -- but that through Christianity we have access to the Spirit's indwelling without limit.This unlimited access does not mean, in my opinion, that we can continue to sin forever and ever and never be rejected by Christ. However, I do think that the Spirit's indwelling for Christianity removes the restrictions encountered by others outside the Christian faith.This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 12-19-2005 05:22 AM

Did you want to add anything to that robinrohan?

The Old testament and the New Testament don't mix.