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Author Topic:   Why is belief necessary?
Morte
Member (Idle past 6103 days)
Posts: 140
From: Texas
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 1 of 94 (155621)
11-03-2004 9:11 PM


(Probably belongs in Faith and Belief)
As I stated a few months back in another thread, one of the main reasons I have a hard time believing in the God of the Bible is because of the emphasis on belief. See, the way I see it, I can't control my beliefs - if I see aspects of nature that seem to logically contradict what the Bible says (and for the sake of staying on topic, let's not go into what aspects), I cannot force myself to believe in its words. Even if I went to church every week for the rest of my life, and deeply wanted to believe that such a God existed (because, as an example, I wanted to believe that there is an afterlife of some form), I'm simply too skeptical/questioning/suspicious/[insert appropriate word here, I just can't think of one that fits perfectly] - it's just how my mind works.
I could just as easily have used the example of someone trying to convince me that there is no such thing as gravity and that they can fly - there is simply no way I would be able to believe that without proof, even if I wanted to do so.
However, I'm presented with the idea of a loving, benevolent God... who condemns souls to damnation for simply not believing in the right idea. So my question is, why would God not accept into Heaven those who simply could not reconcile aspects of faith with the evidence that they see? Why is it that one must be Christian for Christ's sacrifice to "apply" to them?
In a similar manner, I cannot comprehend the portrayal of mere thoughts and feelings as sins that separate us from God. I cannot control my thoughts; why should I be condemned for them? If you ask me, it seems that having such thoughts and still resisting temptation to act upon them is a sign of strength of morality, rather than evil nature. Again, why this seeming contradiction with reason? I simply cannot comprehend a loving God who would forbid us from doing something we cannot help but do.
I'd be quite interested in any answers anyone can provide - it's this sort of idea, that makes it impossible for me to believe in such a God, more than the evidence in "aspects of nature" I mentioned in my first paragraph (which I imagine is what leads most to cease belief in the Bible - not being able to reconcile their faith with evidence).

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 11-03-2004 9:54 PM Morte has replied
 Message 5 by Gilgamesh, posted 11-04-2004 12:10 AM Morte has replied
 Message 42 by Hangdawg13, posted 11-04-2004 7:25 PM Morte has not replied
 Message 43 by General Nazort, posted 11-04-2004 8:54 PM Morte has replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
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Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 94 (155624)
11-03-2004 9:22 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 3 of 94 (155631)
11-03-2004 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Morte
11-03-2004 9:11 PM


You actually have at least three question buried in there.
First, you need belief for any religion. GOD is not something that can be studied or evaluated by science, it's not an area where you'll find much objective evidence.
However, I'm presented with the idea of a loving, benevolent God... who condemns souls to damnation for simply not believing in the right idea.
We covered that very question Here.
In a similar manner, I cannot comprehend the portrayal of mere thoughts and feelings as sins that separate us from God.
I would tend to agree in most cases. If it is an uncontroled thought I doubt that it would be considered much if any of a sin. The limitation for me would be an intentional act. If you set out intentionally to have certain thoughts I could see how that could be a sin. One example might be planning and fantacising about doing major harm to another.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Morte, posted 11-03-2004 9:11 PM Morte has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Morte, posted 11-03-2004 10:50 PM jar has not replied

  
Morte
Member (Idle past 6103 days)
Posts: 140
From: Texas
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 4 of 94 (155647)
11-03-2004 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
11-03-2004 9:54 PM


Re: You actually have at least three question buried in there.
quote:
First, you need belief for any religion. GOD is not something that can be studied or evaluated by science, it's not an area where you'll find much objective evidence.
Well, obviously. What I meant was to question why belief is necessary for salvation, not for the religion itself.
I've read that thread before, (actually, it's part of what got me thinking about this again most recently), and from what I know of your views, I remember thinking several times that *this* was the only type of Christian I could ever really envision myself as... The only viewpoint I could really comprehend. When I asked I was directing the question towards the more "Billy Graham" types - those who think that you must first ask for forgiveness before it will be granted. It's a semantics thing, I guess, since that thread kind of followed the lines I was thinking of for a few pages, but what I mean is less of a "Who can be saved?" and more of a "How can you explain to me a God that requires a certain thought/belief out of people who cannot control their thoughts/beliefs?" The stress being on not being able to control one's beliefs, or, in the latter case, one's "sinful" thoughts, rather than whether or not God actually *does* condemn them. I'm trying to understand the viewpoint, not debate God's actual reactions to how one believes.
(I seem to have a serious tip-of-the-tongue syndrome tonight - if anyone can explain that better, please do. Otherwise, will try to elaborate when I come back and my head is less in a less political mode.)
quote:
One example might be planning and fantacising about doing major harm to another.
I was thinking of more basic, common lines of thought. But, point taken, I hadn't even thought of that; my thoughts are generally more of a random flow of consciousness that I rarely "direct", as the utter clunkiness of this post might imply. Again, I was thinking of a more fundamentalist viewpoint - our sinful thoughts separate us from God and make even the most righteous of men difficult for Him to look upon. ...I've been reading that column too much lately, they put it right next to the crossword and comics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 11-03-2004 9:54 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 12:23 AM Morte has replied
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 11-04-2004 11:07 AM Morte has not replied

  
Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 94 (155667)
11-04-2004 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Morte
11-03-2004 9:11 PM


Hi Morte.
Morte wrote:
As I stated a few months back in another thread, one of the main reasons I have a hard time believing in the God of the Bible is because of the emphasis on belief. See, the way I see it, I can't control my beliefs - if I see aspects of nature that seem to logically contradict what the Bible says (and for the sake of staying on topic, let's not go into what aspects), I cannot force myself to believe in its words. Even if I went to church every week for the rest of my life, and deeply wanted to believe that such a God existed (because, as an example, I wanted to believe that there is an afterlife of some form), I'm simply too skeptical/questioning/suspicious/[insert appropriate word here, I just can't think of one that fits perfectly] - it's just how my mind works.
I have ask Christians for many years how I could obtain actual knowledge of the existence of their God, not just generate hope or faith. They have shown me many ways how I could perpetuate belief in something that isn't true, but have never demonstrated that I can obtain, or that they themselves have, knowledge of a God.
Think about it. Some things you just know: where you went to school, where you house is, what country you live in etc etc. In order to maintain belief in those things, do you regularly have to:
- meet only with other people who believe the same things
- have the existence of those things constantly preached to you
- sing songs about those things
- read the same book that confirms those things
- avoid information contrary to your belief in those things
- constantly repeat ideas about those things in your mind
These are all thought control techniques used by all totalitarianisms, religious or political. The obvious answer as to why Christians use such techniques is because what they believe in is false and not evidenced by the world.
If salvation is by faith/belief alone, the only way to the Christian concept of heaven is through naivety, gullibility and ignorance. I can't imagine a deity would have any particular reason for rewarding possession of those qualities alone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Morte, posted 11-03-2004 9:11 PM Morte has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Morte, posted 11-04-2004 1:10 AM Gilgamesh has replied

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 94 (155669)
11-04-2004 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Morte
11-03-2004 10:50 PM


Re: You actually have at least three question buried in there.
Well, obviously. What I meant was to question why belief is necessary for salvation, not for the religion itself.
Is belief that your wife loves you necessary for your relationship to work?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Morte, posted 11-03-2004 10:50 PM Morte has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Morte, posted 11-04-2004 12:46 AM RustyShackelford has replied

  
Morte
Member (Idle past 6103 days)
Posts: 140
From: Texas
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 7 of 94 (155676)
11-04-2004 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by RustyShackelford
11-04-2004 12:23 AM


Unconditional love?
quote:
Is belief that your wife loves you necessary for your relationship to work?
Obviously, not always these days. And I'd be leaning towards yes, but I can see loving someone without having that love returned. In most circumstances, yes, anyway.
But - and here's the thing - that analogy isn't really analogous, they're not comparable. If you believe that Jesus took all of the sins of humanity upon Himself on the cross, why should His sacrifice then only take care of those who believe that He was divine? In your example, my belief directly affects the outcome; but here the outcome has already occurred, I just don't believe it until I die and find out the truth. Unless I'm missing something...
If you're trying to say, on the other hand, that it's necessary for me to believe in what Jesus did to be able to have a relationship with God (and to have my sins forgiven), what I'm asking is why a loving God would do this when all signs, to a mind like my own, seem to point to his nonexistence. Am I to be doomed from the start simply because of the way my thoughts process?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 12:23 AM RustyShackelford has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 1:27 AM Morte has not replied

  
Morte
Member (Idle past 6103 days)
Posts: 140
From: Texas
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 8 of 94 (155683)
11-04-2004 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Gilgamesh
11-04-2004 12:10 AM


...Just save yourself some time and skip to the last paragraph.
quote:
If salvation is by faith/belief alone, the only way to the Christian concept of heaven is through naivety, gullibility and ignorance. I can't imagine a deity would have any particular reason for rewarding possession of those qualities alone.
You know, at times I would agree (I admit that my beliefs, while generally stable, do vary in their respective strengths based on my mood - so that I might be very sure of them one day and more questioning the next). But right now I'm in a more pond'rous mood; I simply am trying to understand - from this viewpoint are some people, by basis of beliefs, condemned simply because they think in such a way? To me this is a grave injustice if it were to be true.
Many tell me I'm resisting faith because I want to believe what I currently believe, but that simply isn't true (as a matter of fact I've been trying to learn more about various religions, at least in part because I might find something that makes sense to me; it's part of the reason I studied philosophy) - it's just that I know I cannot alter my own beliefs or way of thinking, so, short of a clearly supernatural miracle or an argument that somehow makes perfect sense to me, I simply can't see myself believing in the words of the Bible anytime soon. However (and here's the part that most people find doesn't make sense to them), I believe that there is an afterlife of some form (whether it be another world/reincarnation, I don't know), perhaps simply because I cannot imagine ceasing to exist. I suppose I'd simply like to know, if I'm to be damned by all the various deities that "exist", what I'm to be damned for.
In all, that longwindedly says I agree with what you say, but I'm curious anyway - and I might just learn something new in the exchange.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Gilgamesh, posted 11-04-2004 12:10 AM Gilgamesh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 1:30 AM Morte has replied
 Message 13 by Gilgamesh, posted 11-04-2004 1:41 AM Morte has replied

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 94 (155685)
11-04-2004 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Morte
11-04-2004 12:46 AM


Re: Unconditional love?
what I'm asking is why a loving God would do this when all signs, to a mind like my own, seem to point to his nonexistence.
To my mind, its exactly the opposite........so, maybe we're all just seeing what we want to see.......and, in your case, you WANT to disbelieve.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Morte, posted 11-04-2004 12:46 AM Morte has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by crashfrog, posted 11-04-2004 1:33 AM RustyShackelford has replied

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 94 (155686)
11-04-2004 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Morte
11-04-2004 1:10 AM


Re: ...Just save yourself some time and skip to the last paragraph.
However (and here's the part that most people find doesn't make sense to them), I believe that there is an afterlife of some form (whether it be another world/reincarnation, I don't know), perhaps simply because I cannot imagine ceasing to exist.
This statement points to my general feeling toward people who say they CAN'T believe.........I believe a person CAN believe anything he chooses to (as the above demonstrates).........

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Morte, posted 11-04-2004 1:10 AM Morte has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Morte, posted 11-04-2004 1:49 AM RustyShackelford has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 11 of 94 (155687)
11-04-2004 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by RustyShackelford
11-04-2004 1:27 AM


To my mind, its exactly the opposite........so, maybe we're all just seeing what we want to see.......and, in your case, you WANT to disbelieve.
Why? Why would anybody want to be an atheist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 1:27 AM RustyShackelford has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 1:37 AM crashfrog has replied

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 94 (155689)
11-04-2004 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by crashfrog
11-04-2004 1:33 AM


Many different reasons.......and you guys seem happy as clams being atheists, and find it highly disturbing when your beliefs are questioned, so it's pretty obvious that a lot of people want to be atheists..........

"Atheists are just like theists; they find it highly disturbing when you try to weaken their faith." Myself, a couple minutes ago

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by crashfrog, posted 11-04-2004 1:33 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Gilgamesh, posted 11-04-2004 1:44 AM RustyShackelford has replied
 Message 15 by crashfrog, posted 11-04-2004 1:47 AM RustyShackelford has replied

  
Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 94 (155690)
11-04-2004 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Morte
11-04-2004 1:10 AM


Re: ...Just save yourself some time and skip to the last paragraph.
Morte wrote:
I simply am trying to understand - from this viewpoint are some people, by basis of beliefs, condemned simply because they think in such a way? To me this is a grave injustice if it were to be true.
It's not only an injustice, it's really, really daft.
Despite the conceptual difficulties Christians have with their God concept that they and their Bible have made up, Christians constantly insist that their God represents the pinnacle of all admirable qualities. Do you think such an entity would merely only bless those humans who pander to his ego by having faith in his existence?
What a daft concept.
Many tell me I'm resisting faith because I want to believe what I currently believe, but that simply isn't true (as a matter of fact I've been trying to learn more about various religions, at least in part because I might find something that makes sense to me; it's part of the reason I studied philosophy)
We all have a strong compulsion to believe in something. It is arguably an evolved compulsion. Keep looking: I hope one day you do find a theology that provides you with the answers you need.
Some of the very sensible people on this forum hold religious beliefs. They might help you.
Stay away from the fundies!
I suppose I'd simply like to know, if I'm to be damned by all the various deities that "exist", what I'm to be damned for.
If you try to lead a good life as defined by yourself and the people that matter most to you, I can't see how you can go much wrong in this or the next life.
Don't eat too many chips, yummy as they may be.
In all, that longwindedly says I agree with what you say, but I'm curious anyway - and I might just learn something new in the exchange.
I'm sure you have identified those people on this forum who have found many sensible answers to their questions (not me: I'm still banging my head against the wall). You might learn something from them, as I have.
Many years of study have shown me that niether you nor I, have anything to fear from what Christian's conceptualise as God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Morte, posted 11-04-2004 1:10 AM Morte has replied

Replies to this message:
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Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 94 (155691)
11-04-2004 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by RustyShackelford
11-04-2004 1:37 AM


Rusty wrote:
Many different reasons.......and you guys seem happy as clams being atheists, and find it highly disturbing when your beliefs are questioned, so it's pretty obvious that a lot of people want to be atheists..........
You obviously made a typo.
Replace the word atheists with theists and it's fixed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 1:37 AM RustyShackelford has replied

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 Message 16 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 1:48 AM Gilgamesh has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 15 of 94 (155694)
11-04-2004 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by RustyShackelford
11-04-2004 1:37 AM


Many different reasons.......and you guys seem happy as clams being atheists
Hoo boy, anything but, as I've repeatedly stated for the past year. If I could be a theist, I'd be a lot happier, especially about misfortune.
But I can't be a theist, because there's no evidence for the existence of God. If I tried to believe something I know is wrong, I couldn't be happy at all. As it is, I can be satisfied that I'm being honest with myself, which is good, but there's little comfort in atheism. It's not for sissies.
Oh, and just so you know, "many different reasons" is not an answer to my question. Why don't you give me just one, for instance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 1:37 AM RustyShackelford has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 2:07 AM crashfrog has replied
 Message 23 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 2:08 AM crashfrog has replied

  
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