What is a True Christian?

Nothing amuses non-theists more than seeing Christians argue amoungst themselves. Surely the strongest evidence that religion resides purely in the fallible minds of men.There are 33,820 Christian denominations (Michael Shermer, How We Believe, p253, from Gaustad, E S and Barlow, P L, New Historical Atlas of Religion in America).You guys sure don't get very clear messages from your God.

Mike the Whiz wrote:

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But if I didn't have the fruit of the spirit - I wouldn't be able to fulfill the law. A lot of people don't even know what the fruit of the spirit is, and haven't even read the NT, yet there are a lot of opinions being thrown around in this topic. Now if I have this fruit, then surely I can do no murder. If anyone understands me - let them reply.

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So what are we missing here, then Mike? I've read the NT, and have submitted to 6 seprarate Christian conversion experiences, and have been told that I have received this "Holy Spirit", and even know how to perform Glossolalia.I can do no murder (unlike the Christians soldiers over in Iraq at the moment) because I abhor the idea.Surely I must have this "fruit of the spirit"? Do I understand you?

Hello Buz,Glossolalia is what Christians call speaking in tongues or gift of tongues. It is the technical term: do a google search.Multiple conversions? My point being, multiple Christians (of different denominations) have stated that I have received the holy spirit by submitting to their conversion experiences, praying and/or performing glossolalia.Surely then I know what the fruit of the spirit is and I can understand you?

I'm sorry riVeRraT I don't show much respect to those on this forum by firing random shots: I just don't have the time to sustain interaction with these topics.riVeRraT wrote:

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And thiests never argue?

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I don't know whether you meant to write "atheists never argue"? Probably the most telling thing about atheists is that we are all pretty much well in agreeance on most philosophical matters. Notice how on this forum, atheists and agnostics alike relatively fluidly coordinate their responses to theists. Contrast this to hilarious threads like this one where Christians are at each others throats about miniscule issues. And there are many others.My own studies have demonstrated that people within the same churches differ greatly in their beliefs. As I said, you guys quite simply don't seem to get any objective instructions from your God. And your ambiguous, vague, and contradictory scared book is of little help.For atheists and agnostics, life is what you make of it. I think we all agree that trying to be nice to other people is a big part of it.riVeRraT wrote:

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I stick to my statement, religion is from man, not God.
There is the Chirch of man, and the Church of Christ.
There are very few True Christians indeed.

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I am ceaseless amused by this "we are not religious" distinction. I know it is an attempt by some fundamentalist Christians to distance themselves from the mainstream Christian churches. You owe, of course, everything about your religion and your sacred book to these churches and their history.Try looking up a definition of "religion" and explain how your beleifs do not constitute a religion.Every other "True Christian" can articulate many reasons (very often the same reasons as yours) as to why they believe that you aren't a true Christian. Just read this thread.Edited for typos, typos, typosThis message has been edited by Gilgamesh, 05-26-2004 01:55 AM

Mike wrote:

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Well, do you consider yourself christian now? Six times - I guess that means you doubted atleast five times

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I'm always up for a test. I never ceased doubting because I was able to see and experience religion for what it really is.Mike wrote:

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I did not mention you. What I did was make a statement. I said "surely IF I have this fruit I can do no murder". In other words, if I have that thing Christ said, then surely I couldn't do murder. I hope you enjoyed exalting yourself. As for soldiers in Iraq, I have nothing to say about this. I am too ignorant of the spirit in the air, and the plans of the most high. May I refrain from judgement?

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Well this spirit that you and your book talks about is merely a state of mind, sometimes initially prompted by a temporal lobe experience (often induced by a Christian conversion experience), and sustained by constant thought re-inforcement derived from ongoing indoctrination. I know what I'm talking about: I've been there and I've done that.I'm just happy that you too have some way of finding murder abhorent. This is not the case for all Christians, of course.

Such is the nature of the religious game. Holy spirit, demon spirit; true God, false God; we're right, your wrong. And so it continues, with none having anything close to objectively testable truth other than the scientists.... 60% of whom do not believe in a God.Don't trust the validity of science? Try invoking your God for transportation next time you wish to fly overseas. See how far you get.From the outside looking in, it appears that all theists are wrong. Any given theist is often wrong for the exact same reasons he/she believes all the other theists are wrong.From the outside looking in, all these religions just seem pretty dam silly.Edited for typos!This message has been edited by Gilgamesh, 05-26-2004 02:13 AM

riVeRraT wrote:

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Just read the Bible to find out what a true Christian is.

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I'm probably having a hack at the wrong person, because people like you and Jar seem like genuinely nice persons...All Christians read and quote from the same book. All back up their stance with passages from the Bible. Was it Shakespeare who said that you can find justification for any act in the Bible?I do acknowledge that there is sometimes described a Christian ideal that sounds extremely admirable. Jar articulates an approach to spiritual life that even an atheist would consider admirable and something probably like what an "all good" God would require.But then there are others on this forum, who call themselves Christians, quote from the Bible and are people who demonstrate reprehensible character traits.If it was easy to find out what a true Christian is, from the Bible or elsewhere, this thread would be finished by now.Let's try a definition: Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary 1ne who professes belief in the teachings of JesusI believe that makes all of you True Christians.

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Sorry, I meant to say athiests. Yes they do argue, just not about God, because they don't believe in him.

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Yep, sure we do. About fun stuff, mostly to gain knowledge or to intellectually exercise. We don't bicker in the same way theists do: "I'm right, your wrong and you are going to burn in hell" because we realise that the evidence points to the fact that life is simply what you make of it. It's a subjective thing, and there is little point about arguing about those things.Of course, from the outside, religion appears very subjective also.

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I do not owe anything to main stream churches other than the fact that they kept me away from God for many years. I had to find God on my own, because I could not stand the likes of Jerry falwell, the catholic church and company.
It is only now that I found a church that I like, and it is because of the people there, not any set of beliefs. Still I watch very closely.

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Like I said, Christianity wouldn't exist today if it wasn't for the history of those mainstream churches. Your Bible was cannonised, evolved and translated by those very same churches. Your God, as you see it, was conceived by those churches.I can understand why fundies distance themselves from such churches: because of their despicable history and recent acknowledgement of the allegorical nature of Genesis.I respect your path through faith: your appear to have shed some of the burdens usually associated with Christianity and are justifiably wary of organised religion.The world would be a better place and religious intolerance non-existence if religion resided solely within oneself.

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Believing in God is a freedom, and sets you free.

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All ex-Chritian atheists claim the exact opposite. You are internalising your God, and finding a belief system to accomodate your requirements. Undoutably, this would feel very liberating.Talk to some of the fundie nutters on this thread though and they will attempt to devour you alive for this approach.For them it is all about submission: supposedly to God, but invaribaly to a church and it's elders. I think you know about this stuff!

riVeRraT wrote:

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Was that what it was for you?
You don't talk like someone who has had the truth revealed to himself.

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On the contrary, I saw the truth of the religious conversion process. After six of them, and hundreds of hours in congregations of many Christian faiths, I'd say I'm in a very good position to comment.The conversion experience for many Christians is either a temporal lobe experience, sometimes akin to an emotional breakdown or just merely succumbing to emotively compelling peer group pressure.This truth has not been revealed to you.I have conceived ways of testing the validity of the conversion process, have applied those tests, and found the process (in it's myriad of forms) wanting.I'm going to dump this line of discussion, if you don't mind, because it is off topic and causes Christains major grief.Sorry riVeRraT, it is your other Christian (and other religious) brethren that I have issue with: those that lie, distort, twist, intimidate in order to perpetuate their own personal power at the expense of all humanity.You are not one of those.This message has been edited by Gilgamesh, 05-26-2004 08:24 PM

Hello riVeRraT,I'm really enjoying reading your posts and I can relate to a lot of what you write about. Accordingly, I will curb my responses a tad.

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I agree completely with you about Christians in general. But limiting it to only Christians is wrong on your part, it is universal that about 80% of all people don't really understand what it is they are into. But they will be judged based on who and what they are, something we couldn't understand.

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Ok. I was mainly trying to convey that this "We are the true Christians; we're right, your wrong" debate amoungst Christians seems very unconvincing from the outside looking in.

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I guess you never seen 2 athiests in a bar fight, and then pulled out knives on each other?

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I bet this wasn't about some spiritual/philosophical debate!Like I said, just check out the difference in harmony between atheists/agnostics vs theists on this forum.

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Oh and religion is run by, and created by the guidance of man.

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I fully agree.
Tell me then please how it is that you do not follow a religion? (You can deny the dictionary definition if you want, but then we are merely making up definitions to suit our purposes).

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Gilgamesh wrote:
Like I said, Christianity wouldn't exist today if it wasn't for the history of those mainstream churches. Your Bible was cannonised, evolved and translated by those very same churches. Your God, as you see it, was conceived by those churches.riVeRraT responded:This is your opinion.I find nothing wrong with Genesis.

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So has True Christianity begun with you and your brethren? Does this mean True Christianity is only very young or can you trace a unbroken path of this True Christianity back to Christ and the origins of the Bible?Do you agree with the Catholic Church's interpretation of Genesis or do you believe in a literal interpretation (we don't have to dwell on this)?

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Almost but not quite. I was raised a Christian, but from a very young age decided after reading the Bible that the catholic church was not in the word of God. I was then liberated by being free of that churches beliefs.Where did those beliefs come from? thats right man.

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Once again, I agree that religious beliefs come from man. You say some. I say all.I am glad that you have broken free of the burden of one belief system, but please explain how it is that you feel that your are no longer burdened?

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I still studied the Bible, but for 25 years I remained without believing in God. I gave my heart to Jesus 5 years ago, but didn't feel anything until very recently.

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Why the heck did you bother with it then. This sounds like a classic case of parental influence.You may feel that you escaped that yoke, but unfortunately your parents have predisposed you to religious beliefs in any form. Out of the frying pan into the fire?

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My life is fine, I am a very sucessful business man with 5 lovely children. I own a home, and I am debt free, cept for the mortgage. I have all the toys I could want. Why would I need God?

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Life is fine for the fortunate atheist and lucky theist alike.You need God because your upbringing predisposed you to religious beliefs (not to mention the evolutionary predisposition we all have towards religiousity). You shed one spiritual system and fill the maw with another. Maybe a better one, and if so, that is good. Arguably, it is no more true than the other one though. Well that's what we're debating in this thread, isn't it?

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Of course I realize that in a heartbeat this could all change, because it is still man. I have decided that when this happens not to blame God for it.

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This I really respect. It is essential to temperate religious beliefs with rationale caution and scepticism. I have come across many horror stories from individuals who have given themselves wholly over to churches and have had their lives ruined because ot it.Sure, God is not to blame.

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Hopefully you could see where I am coming from a little bit.
I don't have a problem telling you.

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I do see where you are coming from and appreciate you telling me. If I was ever to succumb to religion (and I never rule it out because I acknowledge the very strong emotional element in it) I will follow a path not entirely dissimilar to your own, and hope to find fellow Christians as cool as those in your church.This message has been edited by Gilgamesh, 05-27-2004 12:47 AM