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Author Topic:   What is a True Christian?
Phat
Member
Posts: 9313
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 256 of 329 (791119)
09-11-2016 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by jar
01-14-2008 2:19 PM


Creed vs Reason and Reality
jar writes:

Christianity is just a club. That's all. It is a human club created by human beings for very human purposes. To be a member of some club you need to subscribe to the basic "terms of membership".

In Club Christian the basic membership requirements were set out in the Nicene Creed in about the 4th Century. The goal was to create a basic set of Bylaws that would unite all the different chapters of Club Christian.

So in your opinion, unity is to some degree achieved through accepting the Nicene Creed...if not what is scripture.
Nicene Creed writes:

For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.

The contrarian minority would argue that there is no proof or evidence that Jesus was born of a Virgin. They even trot out their scriptures (as defined and/or interpreted by them) to prove that the Holy Spirit (as stated in the Nicene Creed) is illogical.

Now before you say anything, I can readily accept that Jesus while on earth was human. How many humans can be born of a virgin? Do you go with the Creed on this one or do you go with your logic, reason, and reality?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by jar, posted 01-14-2008 2:19 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by jar, posted 09-11-2016 8:16 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28838
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 257 of 329 (791122)
09-11-2016 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Phat
09-11-2016 7:40 AM


Re: What Is Scripture?
Phat writes:

jar writes:

The reality is "So far even within Christianity there is no universal accepted list of what is or is not scriptural beyond the first five books of the Old Testament."

Perhaps not universally but there is a majority agreement concerning the New Testament.

So it is, as I said, a human decision as to what is scripture.

If there is some Holy Spirit actually guiding the process, why has that Holy Spirit been unable to get anything as simple as a definitive list of what is and is not scriptural accepted?"

Because there are a few people whom are unimpressed by Pauls marketing. I would honestly estimate that 9 out of 10 Christian churches do in fact accept the New Testament. The fact that a few of you belong to a contrarian club brings into question the word "definitive". The reason,in my opinion, that the Holy Spirit has been unable to achieve unity is because some people refuse to accept it.

So it is, as I said, a human decision as to what is scripture.

Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed quote


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Phat, posted 09-11-2016 7:40 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28838
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 258 of 329 (791123)
09-11-2016 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Phat
09-11-2016 7:53 AM


Re: Creed vs Reason and Reality
Phat writes:

So in your opinion, unity is to some degree achieved through accepting the Nicene Creed...if not what is scripture.

The Nicene Creed is not scripture. One clue might be that it is a Creed. But again, even the Nicene Creed is a human creation that evolved over time.

But Phat, that is only within a given club, a set of guidelines for that club. It says nothing about what is, rather only what the club says they believe.

Phat writes:

The contrarian minority would argue that there is no proof or evidence that Jesus was born of a Virgin. They even trot out their scriptures (as defined and/or interpreted by them) to prove that the Holy Spirit (as stated in the Nicene Creed) is illogical.

Now before you say anything, I can readily accept that Jesus while on earth was human. How many humans can be born of a virgin? Do you go with the Creed on this one or do you go with your logic, reason, and reality?

Well, I have to go with reason, logic and reality.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Phat, posted 09-11-2016 7:53 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Phat, posted 09-13-2016 12:16 AM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13025
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 259 of 329 (791131)
09-11-2016 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Phat
09-10-2016 7:57 PM


Re: What Is Scripture?
Phat writes:

If Paul tells Timothy that scripture is inspired by God, what would you expect Timothys next questions to be?
A) Paul, do I believe everything you say or write? How do I test for integrity?
B) I have no questions. Paul tells me its from God, I believe Paul.
C) Do I believe what I feel or should I look for evidence?


His next question should be, "How are you defining scripture?" As you seem to understand, Paul was probably referring primarily to the Old Testament (and probably some non-canonical books) but not anything that he had written.

Of course Timothy and you should test what Paul wrote for integrity and look for evidence. You should always look for evidence.

Phat writes:

My only question to you is this: Will you ever believe or will you wait until an apple hits you on the head?


If an apple can hit me on the head, I'll wait for it to happen. I'm not going to believe that an apple has hit me until it does.

But your point of view seems to be that apples can't fall - i.e. there can't be evidence. In that case, why should I believe what you believe? Why not the Hindu gods or the native American gods?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Phat, posted 09-10-2016 7:57 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Phat, posted 09-13-2016 12:04 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9313
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 260 of 329 (791223)
09-13-2016 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by ringo
09-11-2016 2:21 PM


Re: What Is Scripture?
Of course Timothy and you should test what Paul wrote for integrity and look for evidence. You should always look for evidence.
Timothy was a companion and trusted younger men-tee of Pauls. Why would Timothy even think of testing Paul's integrity? And I am certain that Timothy saw and observed a lot of evidence.

Do you test the integrity of those whom you hand money to? Do you have any close friends whom you regularly test for integrity?

Perhaps you have a point concerning what you and I should do...since we don't know Paul directly.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by ringo, posted 09-11-2016 2:21 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by ringo, posted 09-13-2016 11:56 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9313
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 261 of 329 (791224)
09-13-2016 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by jar
09-11-2016 8:16 AM


Re: Creed vs Reason and Reality
Phat writes:

I can readily accept that Jesus while on earth was human. How many humans can be born of a virgin? Do you go with the Creed on this one or do you go with your logic, reason, and reality?

jar writes:

Well, I have to go with reason, logic and reality.

Jars Belief Statement writes:

Bishop: Do you believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?
People: I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again.
He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

So in your opinion Jesus was not born of a virgin. OK, got it. I know your arguments somewhat well, and I know you emphasize Jesus life rather than his death, burial, and resurrection.

I also know the arguments concerning what the Bible says versus what many theologians teach and/or were taught that it says.

What If God was one of us?

Thats quite a contrarian chapter of the Episcopalian Club! I realize that the old joke says that there may be a chance that in any given congregation you may find two whom agree!

So Jesus while on earth was not simply human, he was just like us...a sinner who makes mistakes. Do I understand you correctly? Do I understand you to go with the logic,reason,and reality of those scholars who have systematically redefined the whole belief that Jesus was different from other humans? That He was as capable of falling short as you or I? That He had nary a clue who God was?(While human?) Are you straying that far from the Creed? If so I think you are WRONG.

The whole impact, influence, and relevance of early Christianity in the shaping of modern culture was not all Holy and Shiny and Sinless. That I will readily admit. It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.

I firmly believe that if Jesus were simply as human as you or I, He would have no more of a footnote in History than did George Washington.

I suppose that an argument could be made that Mohammed was a mere human and yet had a similar global impact.

I also see how it could be argued that Jesus was who we wanted Him to be and was a product of marketing and lobbying. I stand by my belief, however. Scripture and other biblical writings have value because God was made human. Not because another anonymous baby was born and became another teacher.

Edited by Phat, : added rant, once I awoke for a new day.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by jar, posted 09-11-2016 8:16 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by jar, posted 09-13-2016 8:09 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28838
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 262 of 329 (791229)
09-13-2016 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by Phat
09-13-2016 12:16 AM


Re: Creed vs Reason and Reality
Phat writes:

So Jesus while on earth was not simply human, he was just like us...a sinner who makes mistakes. Do I understand you correctly? Do I understand you to go with the logic,reason,and reality of those scholars who have systematically redefined the whole belief that Jesus was different from other humans? That He was as capable of falling short as you or I? That He had nary a clue who God was?(While human?) Are you straying that far from the Creed? If so I think you are WRONG.

Yes, I do believe Jesus while on earth was simply human, he was just like us...a sinner who makes mistakes. Nor do I see that as straying from the Nicene Creed. In fact I believe the Nicene Creed supports my position.

The rest was more about your beliefs than mine and I have never tried to get you to change your beliefs.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Phat, posted 09-13-2016 12:16 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13025
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


(2)
Message 263 of 329 (791248)
09-13-2016 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by Phat
09-13-2016 12:04 AM


Re: What Is Scripture?
Phat writes:

Why would Timothy even think of testing Paul's integrity?


Because Paul was human.

Phat writes:

Do you test the integrity of those whom you hand money to?


If you mean homeless people, of course I don't. They're not trying to sell me anything, so integrity doesn't enter into it. If you mean business people, of course I do. It's buyer beware, isn't it?

Phat writes:

Do you have any close friends whom you regularly test for integrity?


Yes, I have friends who - to put it politely - you can't believe everything they say. In some cases they're joking; in some cases they may be deluding themselves; in some cases they may be trying to delude me. So yes, I have to test what they say.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Phat, posted 09-13-2016 12:04 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9313
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 264 of 329 (791596)
09-17-2016 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by jar
01-02-2005 5:59 PM


Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
Hitler believed he was a Christian and that his actions were doing the Christian Gods's work. He sincerely believed. So how can anyone say he is NOT a Christian?

What does the evidence show?

Just because someone claims a name does not make them part of a family.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by jar, posted 01-02-2005 5:59 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by jar, posted 09-17-2016 4:20 PM Phat has responded
 Message 270 by ringo, posted 09-18-2016 2:07 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28838
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 265 of 329 (791598)
09-17-2016 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by Phat
09-17-2016 3:17 PM


Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
Phat writes:

What does the evidence show?

Just because someone claims a name does not make them part of a family.

The evidence shows Hitler was a Christian, recognized by several major Christian churches as a Christian, claiming to be a Christian, using scripture to support and justify his behavior.

Phat, this whole thread, this whole topic has shown that there is no real definition of what a Christian is, rather there are a whole bunch of definitions all based on the individual biases of an individual, a group or an era.

What Hitler did was no different than what American Presidents have done in the past, American Presidents recognized as devout Christians.

It was no worse than our pogrom against the Native Americans, our forced removal of them from their homes and lands, our destruction of their cultures, or confiscation of their property and wealth, our constant failure to honor the Treaties we made and forced on them.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Phat, posted 09-17-2016 3:17 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Phat, posted 09-17-2016 7:16 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9313
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 266 of 329 (791601)
09-17-2016 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by jar
09-17-2016 4:20 PM


Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
The evidence shows Hitler was a Christian, recognized by several major Christian churches as a Christian, claiming to be a Christian, using scripture to support and justify his behavior.
Churches are full of people who talk the talk. In addition, many politicians claim to be Christians. Speechwriters historically have used scripture references in speeches.

You seem to think the evidence consists merely of being recognized as a member of the club.

But of course this goes along with your whole belief system.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by jar, posted 09-17-2016 4:20 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by jar, posted 09-17-2016 7:48 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28838
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 267 of 329 (791602)
09-17-2016 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Phat
09-17-2016 7:16 PM


Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
Phat writes:

Churches are full of people who talk the talk. In addition, many politicians claim to be Christians. Speechwriters historically have used scripture references in speeches.

You seem to think the evidence consists merely of being recognized as a member of the club.

But of course this goes along with your whole belief system.

It is not related to my belief system but rather the conclusion based on all the evidence.

What things might define a Christian?

A belief that Jesus is the son of God? Well, then anyone who says they believe that qualifies as a Christian until you can come up with a valid test of beliefs.

Membership in a recognized chapter of Club Christian? Then anyone who is a member of a recognized chapter of Club Christian qualifies as a Christian until you can come up with a valid test of accreditation.

Someone who behaves like Jesus commanded? Then those who behave like Jesus commanded even if NOT a member of a chapter (recognized or unrecognized) of Club Christian qualifies as a Christian.

But there are really few things that can be used to determine membership. As you say, many claim membership. You claim membership. Faith claims membership. The Pope claims membership.

What objective criteria do you suggest that should be used to test such claims?

The body of evidence says that Christians as a group do not behave any differently than any other social demographic.

The body of evidence says that Christians have been at least as violent and intolerant and more successful at genocide than any other group in history.

The body of evidence shows that Christianity was spread mostly by politics, power and commerce and not by Jesus message.

The body of evidence shows Christians have been creating definitions of what makes a Christian almost since the beginning and so there are thousands of chapters in Club Christian with each writing their own Club Standards and denying the legitimacy of members in all other chapters.

I actually think it is not even necessary to be a member of a chapter of Club Christian, particularly a recognized Chapter. I am willing to agree that if you as an example think you are a Christian then I will accept you as a Christian.

But if you have a criteria to suggest, present it for consideration. The evidence shows though that such criteria most often are simply meant as a way to exclude those who might disagree with the position of the criteria presenter.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Phat, posted 09-17-2016 7:16 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Phat, posted 09-18-2016 1:21 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9313
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 268 of 329 (791604)
09-18-2016 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by jar
09-17-2016 7:48 PM


Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
Mort deHann put it rather well:
quote:
"There is a vast difference between coming to Jesus for salvation and coming after Jesus for service. Coming to Christ makes one a believer, while coming after Christ makes one a disciple. All believers are not disciples. To become a believer one accepts the invitation of the Gospel, to be a disciple one obeys the challenge to a life of dedicated service and separation. Salvation comes through the sacrifice of Christ; discipleship comes only by sacrifice of self and surrender to His call for devoted service. Salvation is free, but discipleship involves paying the price of a separated walk. Salvation can't be lost because it depends upon God's faithfulness, but discipleship can be lost because it depends upon our faithfulness." DeHaan, M. R. Hebrews.

Note that salvation is a free gift---as you have stated---personally I dont agree with the idea that GOD simply chooses everyone. I believe that everyone is not damned foreknowingly, however.

Discipleship means doing which you also have stated.

Your whole belief about there being more of other groups--including atheists--in heaven than many Christians would only make sense if God chose everybody. Where I disagree with you is that I believe that we must choose Him...He is the door through whom we enter.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by jar, posted 09-17-2016 7:48 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by jar, posted 09-18-2016 8:00 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28838
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 269 of 329 (791605)
09-18-2016 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by Phat
09-18-2016 1:21 AM


Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
Phat writes:

Mort deHann put it rather well:

quote:
"There is a vast difference between coming to Jesus for salvation and coming after Jesus for service. Coming to Christ makes one a believer, while coming after Christ makes one a disciple. All believers are not disciples. To become a believer one accepts the invitation of the Gospel, to be a disciple one obeys the challenge to a life of dedicated service and separation. Salvation comes through the sacrifice of Christ; discipleship comes only by sacrifice of self and surrender to His call for devoted service. Salvation is free, but discipleship involves paying the price of a separated walk. Salvation can't be lost because it depends upon God's faithfulness, but discipleship can be lost because it depends upon our faithfulness." DeHaan, M. R. Hebrews.

Perhaps you find meaning in that but I really can't see it at all. Nor does it have any relevance I can see to the topic or discussion.

Phat writes:

Note that salvation is a free gift---as you have stated---personally I dont agree with the idea that GOD simply chooses everyone. I believe that everyone is not damned foreknowingly, however.

Discipleship means doing which you also have stated.

Your whole belief about there being more of other groups--including atheists--in heaven than many Christians would only make sense if God chose everybody. Where I disagree with you is that I believe that we must choose Him...He is the door through whom we enter.

But Phat, I am simply repeating what Jesus is said to have said?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Phat, posted 09-18-2016 1:21 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Phat, posted 09-19-2016 8:57 AM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13025
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 270 of 329 (791613)
09-18-2016 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by Phat
09-17-2016 3:17 PM


Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
Phat writes:

Just because someone claims a name does not make them part of a family.


What kind of family rejects somebody who wants to be a member?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Phat, posted 09-17-2016 3:17 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Phat, posted 09-19-2016 8:38 AM ringo has responded

  
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