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Author Topic:   What is a True Christian?
Phat
Member
Posts: 9890
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 271 of 329 (791630)
09-19-2016 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by ringo
09-18-2016 2:07 PM


Family Ties
ringo writes:

What kind of family rejects somebody who wants to be a member?

As I am thinking about an answer to this question, the entire argument becomes clearer in my mind.
  • What is the difference between a club and a family?
  • Is a child in a family expected to follow or adhere to the belief of his/her parents or are they just as accepted for being the contrarian...the rebel?
  • Were the father adopting children, would or should he care what culture they were from? Whether they had been in prison or not? Whether they were honest or not? If they were mentally challenged and had special needs which may require more of his time and money?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 270 by ringo, posted 09-18-2016 2:07 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 274 by ringo, posted 09-19-2016 11:45 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
  • Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9890
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 272 of 329 (791631)
    09-19-2016 8:57 AM
    Reply to: Message 269 by jar
    09-18-2016 8:00 AM


    Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
    jar writes:

    Perhaps you find meaning in that but I really can't see it at all. Nor does it have any relevance I can see to the topic or discussion.

    I believe that it deserves a moment or two of our discourse. Lets break it down and see if we agree or disagree with what this statement asserts.
    A believer by definition believes in the teachings, example, or even character of Jesus Christ. According to DeHann, Coming to Christ makes one a believer. We have discussed the concept of salvation and "being saved" before--IIRC you say that no one can really know until after they die--perhaps not even then.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but you conclude that a Disciple...a doer of what Christ did...does not even need to be a believer. Your belief is unique and is logical only if Paul was wrong and that the death,burial, and resurrection is not the central message of the Gospel. I believe that the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ is what has given meaning to the charge and has been the lynchpin of most chapters of the club...not to mention the family. As far as that goes, I believe that there are two bodies of people...two families if you will. One is the Body of Christ. The other one is not willing to be adopted. By that fact alone, the second family is defined.

    Will you critique DeHanns quote and explain how you understand it to mean?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 269 by jar, posted 09-18-2016 8:00 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 273 by jar, posted 09-19-2016 9:23 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 29433
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 273 of 329 (791632)
    09-19-2016 9:23 AM
    Reply to: Message 272 by Phat
    09-19-2016 8:57 AM


    Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
    Phat writes:

    Correct me if I'm wrong but you conclude that a Disciple...a doer of what Christ did...does not even need to be a believer.

    I have no use for terms like disciple.

    Phat writes:

    Your belief is unique and is logical only if Paul was wrong and that the death,burial, and resurrection is not the central message of the Gospel. I believe that the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ is what has given meaning to the charge and has been the lynchpin of most chapters of the club...not to mention the family.

    No, that is not at all correct. My belief is not unique, it may well be a minority view I am sure. But my position has value for those clothed, fed, healed, comforted, educated, protected.

    The promise of a life after death and of rewards is an easy and attractive sale but does it have value for those not clothed, fed, healed, comforted, educated, protected?

    Phat writes:

    As far as that goes, I believe that there are two bodies of people...two families if you will. One is the Body of Christ. The other one is not willing to be adopted. By that fact alone, the second family is defined.

    That is the position of many of the marketers of Christianity.

    I do not think it was Jesus position but then Jesus was never a Christian.

    Phat writes:

    Will you critique DeHanns quote and explain how you understand it to mean?

    Sure, it is word salad marketing meant to create a feel good emotion and feeling of superiority. It's a total worthless. meaningless exercise in propagandizing.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 272 by Phat, posted 09-19-2016 8:57 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13718
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 274 of 329 (791634)
    09-19-2016 11:45 AM
    Reply to: Message 271 by Phat
    09-19-2016 8:38 AM


    Re: Family Ties
    Phat writes:

    What is the difference between a club and a family?


    One of the primary differences is that a club can revoke your membership; a family can not. Your father is always your father, whether he "disowns" you or not.

    Phat writes:

    Is a child in a family expected to follow or adhere to the belief of his/her parents or are they just as accepted for being the contrarian...the rebel?


    Clubs and families both have rules. Both may or may not enforce all of the rules strictly. The difference lies in the permanence of the enforcement (see above).

    Phat writes:

    Were the father adopting children, would or should he care what culture they were from? Whether they had been in prison or not? Whether they were honest or not? If they were mentally challenged and had special needs which may require more of his time and money?


    A father would take those factors into account. (If they didn't, there wouldn't be a preponderance of "difficult" children waiting to be adopted.) In a club, any of those factors might be grounds for rejecting an application.

    So, is Christianity a family or a club?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 271 by Phat, posted 09-19-2016 8:38 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 4303
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005
    Member Rating: 2.5


    (2)
    Message 275 of 329 (791657)
    09-19-2016 5:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 251 by Phat
    09-10-2016 7:57 PM


    How should we understand Scripture?
    Phat writes:

    If Paul tells Timothy that scripture is inspired by God, what would you expect Timothys next questions to be?
    A) Paul, do I believe everything you say or write? How do I test for integrity?
    B) I have no questions. Paul tells me its from God, I believe Paul.
    C) Do I believe what I feel or should I look for evidence?


    Let's look at the quote you are referring to form 2 Timothy 3.
    quote:
    16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

    Neither God-breathed or inspired is the equivalent of saying that the Bible is inerrant. Yes I know that many people try and use it that way but that isn’t what it says.
    All human wisdom is a gift from God. It is all God breathed or inspired. That doesn’t mean that human wisdom is inerrant. We do know that all scripture was written by humans. The question then is did God somehow short circuit human wisdom to come up with an inerrant Bible.
    I agree that all scripture is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.
    Firstly then, why would Jesus have to correct what had been written. As I have pointed out to you before Jesus refers to passages from the Torah as being written by Moses and then corrects them.
    For example here is a quote from John 8.
    quote:
    3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group
    4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery.
    5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?”
    6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger.
    7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.”
    8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
    9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.
    10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
    11 “No one, sir,” she said. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

    The Pharisees are referring back to Leviticus 20 where God commands death for adultery. Note too that they don’t say God told us to stone her, they say that Moses told them. Jesus say that Moses, not God got it wrong.
    So let’s break it down by what Paul says how scripture it to be understood and used.
    1/ Teaching: We learn that adultery is wrong and we see that as we all sin none of us have earned the right to, metaphorically speaking, cast the first stone.
    2/ Rebuking: Jesus is rebuking self-righteousness and the idea of public stoning.
    3/ Correcting: Both the Pharisees and the woman are corrected and when we read this can find things in our own life that need correcting.
    4/ Training: It is easy to see that Jesus is saying that the legalistic hard hearted attitude of the Pharisees was in need of training to soften their hearts and from that I suggest that Jesus wants us to train ourselves and others to have softer more understanding hearts.
    I agree that God breathes life into the scriptures. He speaks to us through the Scriptures. The scriptures are a huge part of the Christian faith but if we start to believe that the man Moses, or for that matter any other Biblical author wrote specifically as directed by God then we have to conclude that death by public stoning is ok and that Jesus got it wrong.
    In the end we have to come to a conclusion on whether we understand the nature of God and His desires for our life through Jesus or an inerrant Bible. Is it the Bible that perfectly embodies the eternal Word or wisdom of God or is it Jesus? It can’t be both.

    Edited by GDR, : No reason given.


    He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

    Micah 6:8


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 251 by Phat, posted 09-10-2016 7:57 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 276 by Faith, posted 09-19-2016 7:16 PM GDR has responded
     Message 279 by NoNukes, posted 09-19-2016 8:52 PM GDR has responded
     Message 288 by Phat, posted 09-20-2016 5:14 PM GDR has responded

        
    Faith
    Inactive Member


    Message 276 of 329 (791672)
    09-19-2016 7:16 PM
    Reply to: Message 275 by GDR
    09-19-2016 5:30 PM


    Re: How should we understand Scripture?
    All human wisdom is a gift from God. It is all God breathed or inspired. That doesn’t mean that human wisdom is inerrant.

    What on EARTH do you think you are saying? Do you actually think Paul would have called anything other than scripture itself "God breathed" or "inspired" -- which means breathed by the Holy Spirit? The same Paul who calls human wisdom "foolishness with God" (1 Cor 1:20, 3:19)? Human beings may be capable of some wonderful things even in our fallen condition, but nothing that Paul or any other writer of scripture would call "God breathed." If it's God-breathed it is authored by God Himself and therefore inerrant.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 275 by GDR, posted 09-19-2016 5:30 PM GDR has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 277 by GDR, posted 09-19-2016 7:53 PM Faith has responded
     Message 282 by ringo, posted 09-20-2016 12:06 PM Faith has not yet responded

      
    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 4303
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005
    Member Rating: 2.5


    Message 277 of 329 (791685)
    09-19-2016 7:53 PM
    Reply to: Message 276 by Faith
    09-19-2016 7:16 PM


    Re: How should we understand Scripture?
    Faith writes:

    What on EARTH do you think you are saying? Do you actually think Paul would have called anything other than scripture itself "God breathed" or "inspired" -- which means breathed by the Holy Spirit? The same Paul who calls human wisdom "foolishness with God" (1 Cor 1:20, 3:19)? Human beings may be capable of some wonderful things even in our fallen condition, but nothing that Paul or any other writer of scripture would call "God breathed." If it's God-breathed it is authored by God Himself and therefore inerrant.


    Interesting that you pick out that to quote and respond to, while ignoring the fact that Jesus tells us that it was Moses not God that wrote that verse in the OT and that Moses got it wrong.

    I was simply pointing out that as life is a gift from God then it follows that so is wisdom.


    He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

    Micah 6:8


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 276 by Faith, posted 09-19-2016 7:16 PM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 278 by Faith, posted 09-19-2016 7:59 PM GDR has responded

        
    Faith
    Inactive Member


    Message 278 of 329 (791688)
    09-19-2016 7:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 277 by GDR
    09-19-2016 7:53 PM


    Re: How should we understand Scripture?
    I was simply pointing out that as life is a gift from God then it follows that so is wisdom.

    No you weren't, you were denying the inerrancy of scripture. Which you were also doing when making it seem like Moses' could have said anything as if under his own power rather than God's inspiration.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 277 by GDR, posted 09-19-2016 7:53 PM GDR has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 280 by GDR, posted 09-19-2016 9:22 PM Faith has not yet responded

      
    NoNukes
    Member
    Posts: 9993
    From: Central NC USA
    Joined: 08-13-2010
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 279 of 329 (791692)
    09-19-2016 8:52 PM
    Reply to: Message 275 by GDR
    09-19-2016 5:30 PM


    Re: How should we understand Scripture?
    In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?”

    A bit of a nitpick here, but statements like these do not claim that Moses wrote the Torah. The quoted statement just says that the Torah, which is not written in first person anyway, contains Moses words.

    I must emphasize that I am nitpicking, because your main point is well argued. However inerrant Bible worshipers have a number of techniques for defending innerancy despite statements like this one. One doctrine is to talk about dispensations. 'Moses was right for his time, but we are in a different dispensation after Jesus'.


    Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

    History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

    Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 275 by GDR, posted 09-19-2016 5:30 PM GDR has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 281 by GDR, posted 09-19-2016 9:45 PM NoNukes has responded

        
    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 4303
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005
    Member Rating: 2.5


    Message 280 of 329 (791693)
    09-19-2016 9:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 278 by Faith
    09-19-2016 7:59 PM


    Re: How should we understand Scripture?
    Faith writes:

    No you weren't, you were denying the inerrancy of scripture. Which you were also doing when making it seem like Moses' could have said anything as if under his own power rather than God's inspiration.

    I do agree that I don't believe that we are to understand the scriptures the same way you do. You choose an inerrant Scripture over what Jesus says and I choose Jesus over an inerrant Scripture. It is either Jesus or an inerrant Scripture. Take your pick. The two positions are not congruent.

    I explained in that earlier post how I contend is the way that God speaks to us through the Scriptures.


    He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

    Micah 6:8


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 278 by Faith, posted 09-19-2016 7:59 PM Faith has not yet responded

        
    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 4303
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005
    Member Rating: 2.5


    Message 281 of 329 (791694)
    09-19-2016 9:45 PM
    Reply to: Message 279 by NoNukes
    09-19-2016 8:52 PM


    Re: How should we understand Scripture?
    NoNukes writes:

    A bit of a nitpick here, but statements like these do not claim that Moses wrote the Torah. The quoted statement just says that the Torah, which is not written in first person anyway, contains Moses words.

    OK, but the quote I used was that "Moses COMMANDED us to stone such women". If you go back to Leviticus 20 where that command comes from you can see that Chapter 20 starts off with, "Then the Lord spoke to Moses saying... and then follows on with along list of punishments which includes death for adultery.

    Another example is from Numbers 15.

    quote:
    32 While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.

    Here we can see that it is very clear that the writer is saying that the public stoning by the community is commanded by the Lord through Moses. When Jesus refers back to the Torah as in the adultery case He doesn't say that God commanded it, He says that Moses commanded it.

    NoNukes writes:

    However inerrant Bible worshipers have a number of techniques for defending innerancy despite statements like this one. One doctrine is to talk about dispensations. 'Moses was right for his time, but we are in a different dispensation after Jesus'.

    The problems with that though are huge. If we are to believe that, then we are left with a God of situational ethics. If our understanding of the nature of God follows along that line then who is to say that we aren't back in the same situation now with people of other faiths. All of Jesus' teaching about love your enemy is simply boiled down to that we should love our enemy as long as they are nice to us. Jesus didn't take that attitude with the Romans.

    Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed quote


    He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

    Micah 6:8


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 279 by NoNukes, posted 09-19-2016 8:52 PM NoNukes has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 285 by NoNukes, posted 09-20-2016 2:42 PM GDR has responded

        
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13718
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 282 of 329 (791721)
    09-20-2016 12:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 276 by Faith
    09-19-2016 7:16 PM


    Re: How should we understand Scripture?
    Faith writes:

    Do you actually think Paul would have called anything other than scripture itself "God breathed" or "inspired" -- which means breathed by the Holy Spirit?


    As I asked Phat: Do you actually think Paul was talking about his own writings? The epistles that he hadn't even written yet?
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 276 by Faith, posted 09-19-2016 7:16 PM Faith has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 283 by kbertsche, posted 09-20-2016 2:03 PM ringo has responded
     Message 284 by Phat, posted 09-20-2016 2:30 PM ringo has responded

      
    kbertsche
    Member
    Posts: 1405
    From: San Jose, CA, USA
    Joined: 05-10-2007
    Member Rating: 2.0


    (1)
    Message 283 of 329 (791729)
    09-20-2016 2:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 282 by ringo
    09-20-2016 12:06 PM


    Re: How should we understand Scripture?
    ringo writes:

    Faith writes:


    Do you actually think Paul would have called anything other than scripture itself "God breathed" or "inspired" -- which means breathed by the Holy Spirit?

    As I asked Phat: Do you actually think Paul was talking about his own writings? The epistles that he hadn't even written yet?


    No, in the context of 2 Tim 3, Paul was talking about the Scriptures that Timothy had been taught, i.e. the Old Testament.

    But according to 2 Peter, Paul's writings were also considered by the early church to be Scripture:

    quote:

    His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. (2 Peter 3:16, NIV)

    Edited by kbertsche, : Added 2 Pet quote


    "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

    “I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 282 by ringo, posted 09-20-2016 12:06 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 293 by ringo, posted 09-21-2016 3:16 PM kbertsche has responded

        
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9890
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 284 of 329 (791733)
    09-20-2016 2:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 282 by ringo
    09-20-2016 12:06 PM


    Re: How should we understand Scripture?
    ringo writes:

    As I asked Phat: Do you actually think Paul was talking about his own writings? The epistles that he hadn't even written yet?

    Of course not. Paul was not simply a man selling something. Paul was, in my belief, a man on a mission who believed that much of what he spoke at his meetings was inspired not by his own imagination or motive but by the living God Himself. Of course we had no reporter on the scene, camera and mic in hand...so we must use other ways to judge Pauls integrity and mental stability.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 282 by ringo, posted 09-20-2016 12:06 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 294 by ringo, posted 09-21-2016 3:18 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    NoNukes
    Member
    Posts: 9993
    From: Central NC USA
    Joined: 08-13-2010
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 285 of 329 (791736)
    09-20-2016 2:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 281 by GDR
    09-19-2016 9:45 PM


    Re: How should we understand Scripture?
    Here we can see that it is very clear that the writer is saying that the public stoning by the community is commanded by the Lord through Moses. When Jesus refers back to the Torah as in the adultery case He doesn't say that God commanded it, He says that Moses commanded it.

    Right. I agree with you. I am only disputing your statement that the verse shows that Moses wrote the Torah. I am not disputing that Moses made the statements or commands that Jesus attributed to him.

    GDR writes:

    As I have pointed out to you before Jesus refers to passages from the Torah as being written by Moses ...

    Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


    Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

    History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

    Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 281 by GDR, posted 09-19-2016 9:45 PM GDR has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 286 by GDR, posted 09-20-2016 2:55 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

        
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