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Author Topic:   What is a True Christian?
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 46 of 329 (110209)
05-24-2004 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by IrishRockhound
05-19-2004 8:21 AM


Rockhound quote:
______________________________________________________________________
This has come up again and again, and always in the same pattern - if someone disagrees with creationism or another fundamentalist position, then they are not 'true Christians'
______________________________________________________________________
Not true.
You most certainly can disagree, and you most certainly should be able to disagree without someone changing the subject and accusing you of not being a "true christian".
The only problem was that YOU wrote a post that said my position cannot be the position of a true christian BECAUSE in your view I was not "turning the other cheek.....loving my neighbor".
You are perfectly representative of the world at large that believes the Sermon on the Mount and complying with its directives is the goal for christians.
The Sermon on the Mount:
NOBODY can keep the precepts and laws contained therein. It is a sledgehammer intended to show everyone that they cannot do it. Jesus said if you even DESIRE to sin, in God's eyes you are guilty as if you did it.
Jesus changed the Law to a even more impossible standard - a standard that only Jesus would fulfill and keep. Nobody can love their enemy, nobody can refrain from lusting in their heart, nobody can cease from hating - ONLY Jesus could. He preached all these things so we would come to the conclusion that we CANNOT live up to this Divine standard.
This Sermon was shoes that only Jesus could fill - the Law Incarnate.
When He fulfilled the Law God crucified Him thus killing the impossible standard that mankind could not keep.
The purpose of the Sermon on the Mount is to make mankind conclude that they cannot do it, it is intended to drive them to the GOSPEL, which is the only other God ordained alternative, something we can do.
The Sermon on the Mount's purpose is to scare the hell out of you and drive you to the gospel (way of faith) as the only other way to relate to God through the risen Christ.
Does this mean we can sin ? I didn't say that. Remaining in sins is not an alternative. The gospel embraced will have God free you from your sinning nature as we pursue the gospel/faith.
Rockhound wants to ignore my pointy points and lump it all to be hate
filled ranting. Then he asserts himself superior and justifies it with a pea brained citing of scripture.
YOUR lifelong understanding of the Sermon is error !
The goal is not imitation through carnal discipline, rather, spiritual fruition via the power of the gospel.
I hate the destruction of the Constitution by persons who have successfully changed original intent. In my opinion every true christian should hate that too.
If you say you don't hate then you are a liar. Everyone hates. A true christian is hated by the world because Jesus said a servant is no different from his master. They hated Jesus - they will hate you too.
Whats a true christian ?
Paul the Apostle.
If your christianity doesn't cause a riot - then you are a luke warm compromiser who cares more about the praise of men than of God.
I really don't care what non christians think of me, but if any god damn fundementalist says one critical word about me then I will PROVE from scripture that YOU are the worst piece of God damn shit on the face of the Earth.

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 Message 1 by IrishRockhound, posted 05-19-2004 8:21 AM IrishRockhound has not replied

Replies to this message:
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wmscott
Member (Idle past 6248 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 47 of 329 (110213)
05-24-2004 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by IrishRockhound
05-22-2004 9:31 AM


What true Christains are.
quote:
What is actually necessary to be a true Christian?
- belief in bible inerrancy? What Jesus said was. (Matthew 5:18) "I say to YOU that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one particle of a letter to pass away from the Law by any means and not all things take place." Christ clearly believed that the Hebrew scriptures were inspired and accurate, the writers of the Greek scriptures stated that they wrote under the direction of the holy spirit. So "true Christians" would belive in the inerrancy of the bible, that doesn't mean that they would take everything literal since some parts are clearly figurative or told in signs. (Revelation 1:1) "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs "
- belief in creationism? True Christians would believe in creation, but not creationism which is a fundamentalist interpretation that is in conflict with the scriptural description of a progressive creation taking place over a great span of time.
- regular Church-going habits? Yes. (Hebrews 10:24-25) "And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, 25 not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together,"
- regular prayer? Yes. (1 Thessalonians 5:17) "Pray incessantly"
- use of the bible as a moral guide? Yes. (Proverbs 6:20-23) "Observe, O my son, the commandment of your father, and do not forsake the law of your mother. Tie them upon your heart constantly; bind them upon your throat. When you walk about, it will lead you; when you lie down, it will stand guard over you; and when you have waked up, it itself will make you its concern. For the commandment is a lamp, and a light the law is, and the reproofs of discipline are the way of life, "
- belief in the core message of Jesus Christ? Yes. (Acts 3:20-23) "Jesus, whom heaven, indeed, must hold within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old time. In fact, Moses said, 'Jehovah God will raise up for YOU from among YOUR brothers a prophet like me. YOU must listen to him according to all the things he speaks to YOU. Indeed, any soul that does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed"
Who gets to decide who is and who isn't, and how relevant is their opinion? In the finial analysis, God has entrusted the judging to his son Jesus Christ, but that is of individuals, we are expected to judge ourselves if we are truly following Christ and whether we are part of a religion that is the true faith or not. (2 Corinthians 13:5) "Keep testing whether YOU are in the faith," The testing is necessary for we are warned at there would be many who would claim to be Christians but would not be true followers of God or Christ. (2 Timothy 3:5-7) "having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away." (1 Timothy 4:1-3) "However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created"
Since the Bible warns us about those who would mislead us with a counterfeit Christianity which was predicted to wide spread in the last days, the time in which we live, it raises the question of what are the identifying marks of True Christianity? The first mark would be, (John 13:35) "By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves." which would mean that since Christ followers are to be people of all nations and peoples, they would not be prejudice or fight in wars and would show loving concern for their follow Christians and people in general. They would also have to follow the Bible of course, any doctrinal conflict with scripture would disqualify that religion as being True Christian. They would also have to live by the Bible's moral standards and not just preach them. They would have to be actively preaching the Good News of the Kingdom on a global scale as a united organization since that is what Jesus predicted his followers would be doing in the last days.
More information on the issue of "What Does God Require of Us?" is covered at this link and addresses what is True Christianity and what the Bible has say on a number of basic questions that many people have.
http://www.watchtower.org/library/rq/index.htm
Wm. Scott Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by IrishRockhound, posted 05-22-2004 9:31 AM IrishRockhound has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-24-2004 11:27 PM wmscott has replied
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 48 of 329 (110214)
05-24-2004 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by riVeRraT
05-24-2004 5:53 PM


Re:
when Genisis was written, it was a dream interpretation from Moses.
You believe that Moses wrote Genesis?
Any particular reason for this?
Are you a true Christian if you reject Mosaic authorship of the Torah, given the belief that Jesus believed that Moses wrote it?
Brian.
This message has been edited by Brian, 05-24-2004 05:58 PM

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 49 of 329 (110215)
05-24-2004 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by riVeRraT
05-24-2004 5:45 PM


Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
Actually, I doubt that many atheists will have to proclaim Christ as their saviour, or even acknowledge him to be saved. My best guess is that when Jesus returns, he will look them up. Odds are, far higher percentage of atheists will get to heaven than Christians.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by riVeRraT, posted 05-24-2004 5:45 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
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Unseul
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 329 (110217)
05-24-2004 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by jar
05-24-2004 6:54 PM


Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
It all really depends on how this thing works tho. I mean denying god i am sure has been said to be unforgivable (im assuming this is while u are living, once ur dead and come face to face ud have to have some gall to keep telling him he didnt exist), hence us atheists are screwed. If not, then id hope that anyone judging my life would say overall ive probably been a half decent guy.
I dunno if more of us would get in though, possibly as there are fewer extremists that are atheists, and so i spose we're less likely to do anything truly horrific in the name of god.
Now in terms of the topic a true christian is surely one that at the point of becoming christian (taking up the religion and all its beliefs) never knowingly sins again (not a single act that could be deemed bad, lies, slander, swearing etc etc), otherwise ur all just subrate christians that are trying hard.
Unseul

Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 05-24-2004 6:54 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 51 of 329 (110218)
05-24-2004 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Unseul
05-24-2004 7:39 PM


Re: subrate and substandard
fits me to a T. Which is kinda neat. That seems to be the kinda folk the Big Guy liked to hang out with.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 52 of 329 (110221)
05-24-2004 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Buzsaw
05-24-2004 11:06 AM


Re:
[quote]Don't forget, Schraf, that though you hate Robertson and Falwell, they are Biblically correct on all points of yours and yes, Sodom and Gomorah was the result of debauchery including homosexuality. The Bible is full of the consequences of disobedience to Biblical principles. It's the Bible you seem to [i]really[/ii] hate.[/quote]
So, do you believe that the WTC attacks were caused by the ACLU (and gays, feminists, NOW, "abortionists", the People for the American Way, pagans, and lesbians), as Falwell and Robertson said?
Yes or No?
That is the same ACLU that helped to DEFEND Falwell in a religious freedom suit against the state of Virginia, you know. I wonder if he's changed his tune?
Soddom and Gomorah were destroyed because of the poor way they treated strangers, according to my interpretation.
If God thinks that debauchery is bad, then why did he allow all those Old Testament men to have multiple wives?
Why did God let the Jews take the women of conquored nations as the spoils of war, which basically meant that he was condoning rape and the ownership of human beings?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Buzsaw, posted 05-24-2004 11:06 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 53 of 329 (110223)
05-24-2004 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Unseul
05-24-2004 7:39 PM


Re:
Now in terms of the topic a true christian is surely one that at the point of becoming christian (taking up the religion and all its beliefs) never knowingly sins again
I would say, one who tries his very best to never sin again. Like Willowtree said, we all fall short of Christ's example.
It seems that one can proclaim to be a christian at most. I myself consider myself a christian, but Christ might not consider me one.
But if I didn't have the fruit of the spirit - I wouldn't be able to fulfill the law. A lot of people don't even know what the fruit of the spirit is, and haven't even read the NT, yet there are a lot of opinions being thrown around in this topic. Now if I have this fruit, then surely I can do no murder. If anyone understands me - let them reply.
I mean denying god i am sure has been said to be unforgivable
It is also said "You are not far from the Kingdom of God" - when Christ percieved a discresion. I feel he would have said something similar to you.
Let us not forget the seperating of the sheep from the goat, can anyone tell me who qualifies as a sheep? Can anyone tell me who qualifies as a goat?

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Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 54 of 329 (110225)
05-24-2004 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by IrishRockhound
05-19-2004 8:21 AM


Spiritual Maturity
Rockhound,
From the posts I've read, the love/acceptance of God/Christ in whatever variation the denomination interprets (I'm being very very general) doesn't deal with behavior when determining a Christian.
I feel that what you have come up against though is a Spiritual Maturity issue.
John 5:19-23 reads:
quote:
Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities , strife, jealousy , outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness , faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Some Christians accept Christ, but don't always let go of all the fleshly problems. The goal is to work on these as you grow spiritually through Christ. Some don't mature and get so preoccupied with gathering up the tares that they destroy perfectly good wheat.
For me personally, I know the limits of my own spiritual maturity, consider the source, turn my self-control on high, and answer as unemotionally as possible.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by IrishRockhound, posted 05-19-2004 8:21 AM IrishRockhound has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-24-2004 11:08 PM purpledawn has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 55 of 329 (110242)
05-24-2004 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by purpledawn
05-24-2004 8:49 PM


Re: Spiritual Maturity
Purpledawn quote:
______________________________________________________________________
For me personally, I know the limits of my own spiritual maturity, consider the source, turn my self-control on high, and answer as unemotionally as possible.
______________________________________________________________________
This comment is a superb example of what christianity IS NOT !
A christian is a person who has the Spirit of God dwelling in them. That Spirit does not come inside and manifest Christ's resurrection power via SELF CONTROL/willpower/discipline. The Spirit enters and remains by a continuing act of faith upon a promise of God.
It is pure heresy to present christianity as some sort of allegiance to a code of conduct/set of rules.
Christianity is about coming into relationship with God through Christ. The journey begins by faith, continues by faith, and ends by faith. This is the message of the N.T. Purpledawn and others are disciples of Moses with Jesus on their lips and law in their hearts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by purpledawn, posted 05-24-2004 8:49 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 56 of 329 (110245)
05-24-2004 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Cold Foreign Object
05-24-2004 11:08 PM


Re: Spiritual Maturity
I rest my case.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-24-2004 11:08 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 57 of 329 (110251)
05-24-2004 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by wmscott
05-24-2004 6:35 PM


Re: What true Christains are.
wmscott:
Where in your perspective is the gospel ?
I read a lot of subjective rules that probably originate from your denomination.
I cannot find one word of gospel in your post.
Where is the good news/gospel ?
I bet you cannot even properly define the gospel much less communicate what it means.
This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 05-24-2004 10:27 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 58 of 329 (110254)
05-24-2004 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by purpledawn
05-24-2004 11:20 PM


Re: Spiritual Maturity
Very intelligent response.

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 329 (110262)
05-24-2004 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by nator
05-24-2004 8:06 PM


Re:
So, do you believe that the WTC attacks were caused by the ACLU (and gays, feminists, NOW, "abortionists", the People for the American Way, pagans, and lesbians), as Falwell and Robertson said.
Yes or No?
That is the same ACLU that helped to DEFEND Falwell in a religious freedom suit against the state of Virginia, you know. I wonder if he's changed his tune?
Please quote him verbatum and I'll respond.
Soddom and Gomorah were destroyed because of the poor way they treated strangers, according to my interpretation.
And precisely who demanded what of whom according to the text?
If God thinks that debauchery is bad, then why did he allow all those Old Testament men to have multiple wives?
Multiple wives were sanctioned by nearly all cultures back then nor did God forbid it. Biblically it was not considered debauchery. What was forbidden was for Jews to marry heathen wives.
Why did God let the Jews take the women of conquored nations as the spoils of war, which basically meant that he was condoning rape and the ownership of human beings?
Please cite the Biblical text of reference here and I'll comment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by nator, posted 05-24-2004 8:06 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 329 (110264)
05-25-2004 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by nator
05-24-2004 10:56 AM


Re:
Pat Robertson and Jerrry Falwell are racist, homophobic, sexist, anti-intellectual power mongers, showing little in the way of Christian values.
Schraf, substantiate your claim by specifying in detail examples as to how these men are racist, sexist, and anti-intellectual.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by nator, posted 05-24-2004 10:56 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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