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Author Topic:   Prayer, faith and healing
Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 46 of 88 (58863)
09-30-2003 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Maneuver
09-30-2003 7:41 PM


quote:
god should have done something to stop the process.
lemme spell it out for you.....
F R E E W I L L
quote:
And as I stated previously the bishop got this idea out of the bible.
Charles Mansion got his idea to kill from a beatles song.
THAT MUST MEAN THE BEATLES ARE TRYING TO KILL PEOPLE!!!!!!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Maneuver, posted 09-30-2003 7:41 PM Maneuver has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by DC85, posted 09-30-2003 9:55 PM Trump won has not replied

  
DC85
Member (Idle past 379 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 47 of 88 (58868)
09-30-2003 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Trump won
09-30-2003 9:44 PM


lemme spell it out for you.....
F R E E W I L L
have a look at the mother topic. I ask if God doesn't have control over the world why do you pray? Why is it when something good happens God did it. But when something bad happens he couldn't stop it?

This message is a reply to:
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Maneuver
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 88 (58873)
09-30-2003 10:05 PM


Personally I think Freewill and religion contradict each other. Religion requires you to give up some of your decision making ability to be a part of the organization. (Freewill not to have a open mind for other religions than your own) If you accpet freewill in this case why cant you accpet someones freewill not to believe in a religion without going to hell?
"Charles Mansion got his idea to kill from a beatles song.
THAT MUST MEAN THE BEATLES ARE TRYING TO KILL PEOPLE!!!!!!!"
So your comparing christans to Charles Mansion? Charles Mansion wanted to KILL people.
I never said that the bible told the bishop to kill the boy. But the people in boy's story and those like them are so misguided by religion that in their attempt to help people they harm them instead.
[This message has been edited by Maneuver, 09-30-2003]

Replies to this message:
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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 49 of 88 (58874)
09-30-2003 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Maneuver
09-30-2003 10:05 PM


quote:
why cant you accpet someones freewill not to believe in a religion without going to hell?
You are asking me like I created hell. God gave us free will to believe whatever we wanted but if we do not accept the truth we go to hell. Everyone will recieve a chance to hear about God, if you refuse to accept it you end in hell. God gave us a chance at salvation..... JESUS. You have free will to except or deny this but it all comes down to the truth. You will be judged not by me but by God in the end. If you want to deny it you can! God gives us that right but he is not contradicting himself because he has warned us of these things!
If you do not believe then you are refusing to believe. If you take no heed to the warning you shall perish in hell. So what I am trying to say is that yes God did give us a free will to either doom ourselves or to "save" ourselves. It is still free will either way you look at it. I am sorry if I am coming off in a wrong way towards anyone. Judgemental,ignorant, whatever..... So be it. These are my beliefs (set down by God!) that I use my free will to believe in. As for which religion is the right one, this is the set of beliefs God has given us. Take it or leave it. The other religions are man made. Christianity is God made. It does not even have to fall under the category of religion necessarilly, it is THE belief.
Take it or leave it.
-chris

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Maneuver, posted 09-30-2003 10:05 PM Maneuver has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Trump won, posted 09-30-2003 10:34 PM Trump won has not replied
 Message 51 by Rei, posted 09-30-2003 11:02 PM Trump won has replied

  
Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 50 of 88 (58879)
09-30-2003 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Trump won
09-30-2003 10:31 PM


plz respond to my post, post 49 at DC's new topic:
"Which religion is the "right" one?"
[This message has been edited by messenjaH, 09-30-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Trump won, posted 09-30-2003 10:31 PM Trump won has not replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7012 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 51 of 88 (58885)
09-30-2003 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Trump won
09-30-2003 10:31 PM


Everone gets a chance to hear the message of Christ? Last I checked, there weren't too many people stating the message of Christ deep in the African Congo until a few hundred years ago. There have been tribes in remote parts in the world which haven't been discovered until this century. The New World wasn't discovered by the Western World, apart from Lief the Lucky's brief expedition to Vinland, until Columbus. Most places in the world never even see a missionary. Many people die young. Some people have learning difficulties. Some have extreme learning difficulties. Some to the point where they can hardly comprehend a thing.
Your take?
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Trump won, posted 09-30-2003 10:31 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Zhimbo, posted 10-01-2003 12:46 AM Rei has not replied
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Zhimbo
Member (Idle past 6011 days)
Posts: 571
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 07-28-2001


Message 52 of 88 (58906)
10-01-2003 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Rei
09-30-2003 11:02 PM


That's one of the major reasons I started doubting Christianity; my church often had Missionaries come by to talk about their work, and over and over they talked about how many people haven't heard "the Word" and they need money to save these souls...
And I thought - that's awfully unfair! People don't hear about Jesus, but they go to hell if they don't accept him as their Savior?
Just a comment; if someone wants to discuss this let's move it.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by John, posted 10-01-2003 9:34 AM Zhimbo has not replied
 Message 55 by Trump won, posted 10-01-2003 9:47 AM Zhimbo has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 88 (58935)
10-01-2003 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Zhimbo
10-01-2003 12:46 AM


I used to hear something similar-- that you won't go to hell unless you've heard of Jesus and rejected him. What puzzled me was that if you haven't heard of Jesus then either you go to heaven ( ie. not-hell ) or you simply vanish having never had a chance at eternal life in paradise. This is in the first case unfair to those Christians who trouble themselves with the faith during this life and in the second case is unfair to those who simply never had a chance.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Zhimbo, posted 10-01-2003 12:46 AM Zhimbo has not replied

  
Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 54 of 88 (58936)
10-01-2003 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Rei
09-30-2003 11:02 PM


quote:
Everone gets a chance to hear the message of Christ? Last I checked, there weren't too many people stating the message of Christ deep in the African Congo until a few hundred years ago. There have been tribes in remote parts in the world which haven't been discovered until this century. The New World wasn't discovered by the Western World, apart from Lief the Lucky's brief expedition to Vinland, until Columbus. Most places in the world never even see a missionary.
When you are brought into this earth you see the world around you and you know there muist have been a creator. I forget which verse, but it says ALL will see the glory of God. I firmly believe that.
quote:
Many people die young.
The people who die young, I believe are graced by God for they did not have a chance to live such as babies.
quote:
Some people have learning difficulties. Some have extreme learning difficulties. Some to the point where they can hardly comprehend a thing.
Can you give examples of people with such learning disabilities they can't comprehend a thing, or is this just another baseless assertion?

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 Message 51 by Rei, posted 09-30-2003 11:02 PM Rei has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by John, posted 10-01-2003 9:59 AM Trump won has not replied

  
Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 55 of 88 (58938)
10-01-2003 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Zhimbo
10-01-2003 12:46 AM


quote:
Just a comment; if someone wants to discuss this let's move it.
That's fine with me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Zhimbo, posted 10-01-2003 12:46 AM Zhimbo has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 88 (58940)
10-01-2003 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Trump won
10-01-2003 9:42 AM


quote:
When you are brought into this earth you see the world around you and you know there muist have been a creator. I forget which verse, but it says ALL will see the glory of God. I firmly believe that.
It is a big jump from 'wow! maybe there is a creator' to the Christian concept of that creator. Simply figuring there must be a god of some kind doesn't count. You have to believe in Jesus, not just some vague god.
quote:
The people who die young, I believe are graced by God for they did not have a chance to live such as babies.
Why do you believe that? We are all born in sin, yes? There are no innocents, only the saved.
quote:
Can you give examples of people with such learning disabilities they can't comprehend a thing, or is this just another baseless assertion?
I realize you are 14, but are you truly sheltered enough that you don't realize how badly brains can go wrong? Google: profound mental handicap
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
{Fixed a quote box - AM}
[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 10-01-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Trump won, posted 10-01-2003 9:42 AM Trump won has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 57 of 88 (58960)
10-01-2003 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Trump won
09-30-2003 9:33 PM


quote:
Most NON-FUNDAMENTALIST scholars agree with my statement.
quote:
History Channel: Minimalists vs. Bible defenders
The History Channel is one of your sources?
Cable TV is about entertainment and the History Channel is not an exception. They are not a good source of real historical scholarship.
quote:
The book of Isaiah
Archeological digs finding evidences of the bible. Such as Kings, dates, great destructions that happened there.
There is archaelogical evidence of Mayan, Roman, Egyptian, Aztec, and various Pagan religions, too.
So what?
As far as the dead seas scrolls, they are simply very old translations of certain parts of the Bible. They are useful from a greater historical context but they don't "prove" or verify anything other than that parts of the Bible have been around for a very long time.
quote:
"Digging Up Jericho" by Kathleen Kenyon
I couldn't find any mention of this book at Archaeology - Archaeology Magazine. I did find a great many Christian apologetics sites which mentioned it, however.
Can you produce any mainstream Archeological reviews of this book, and can you please provide some references to some peer-reviewed papers which support these assertions?
quote:
King Solomon's temples foundation is still there.
The website you gave me did not provide any non-religious references.
quote:
OK now before you say that you wanted all unbiased sources, for I did give you many, think about this, EVERYONE IS BIASED. Unbiased information is SCARCE.
Everone IS biased. That's why the scientific method and peer review is so important.
Science, done well, eliminates a great deal of personal, individual bias. The scientific method itself does this well, and peer review makes sure others are constantly dissecting and examining your claims.
So, relatively unbiased information is not all that scarce. Scientific papers that survive peer review are usually quite good in this regard. If they weren't then the technologies, medical practices and procedures, and most of all, predictions of the natural world wouldn't work or happen.
I'll repeat for emphasis...
How can science be biased if predictions based upon past scientific work actually happen?
quote:
Before you dismiss christian links at least see what they have to say.
The problem with what they have to say is that they do not attempt to use real scientific methodology nor real peer-review.
If you are a Creationist, you have already agreed to give up science and rational inquiry in favor of preconceived religious dogma.
No Creation 'scientist' comes to any conclusion other than the one he or she has agreed to ahead of time, right?
That's not science, and wearing such blinders is not likely to reach the truth about the physical world.
quote:
So telling people about what you believe is arrogance?
Telling people that you are right and they are wrong when all you have is faith is quite arrogant, yes.
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-01-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Trump won, posted 09-30-2003 9:33 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Trump won, posted 10-01-2003 8:55 PM nator has replied

  
Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 58 of 88 (59015)
10-01-2003 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by nator
10-01-2003 11:08 AM


I'm sick of reading your negative GARBAGE. I don't care what you think. First off watch the history channel program. They show INTELLIGENT views of archeologists, scholars, EVERYTHING. Maybe I'm wrong because it's on cable.
quote:
So what?
You ask me for evidence I provide then you COMPLAIN? What is that?????????????????????????????????
quote:
I did find a great many Christian apologetics sites which mentioned it, however.
What do you have against CHRISTIANS?
quote:
Can you produce any mainstream Archeological reviews of this book, and can you please provide some references to some peer-reviewed papers which support these assertions?
Why don't you read the book for yourself???????? Go to a LIBRARY.
quote:
Everone IS biased.
It's fun restating what I said huh?
I NEVER SAID SCIENCE IS BIASED
When I have time I might go into depth on this.
[This message has been edited by messenjaH, 10-01-2003]
[This message has been edited by messenjaH, 10-01-2003]
[This message has been edited by messenjaH, 10-01-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by nator, posted 10-01-2003 11:08 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by DC85, posted 10-01-2003 11:43 PM Trump won has not replied
 Message 60 by nator, posted 10-04-2003 5:43 PM Trump won has replied

  
DC85
Member (Idle past 379 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 59 of 88 (59025)
10-01-2003 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Trump won
10-01-2003 8:55 PM


I am sorry. and I know its frustrating. However isn't anything getting you to possibly think perhaps your religion isn't the right one? Perhaps it isn't all true? I mean if questions can't be answered what good is your religion?(see my reply to you in the other topic)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 60 of 88 (59387)
10-04-2003 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Trump won
10-01-2003 8:55 PM


quote:
I'm sick of reading your negative GARBAGE. I don't care what you think.
"Negative garbage"?
What is negative about wanting logical, scholarly evidence from you to support what you claim?
It is not negative, and it is not garbage. It is intellectually vigorous critical analysis.
I am sorry if you find such questions and requests frustrating.
the truth is, all you have to say is "I know there's no real support for a lot of the stuff in the Bible, but I believe it anyway."
We have left science and empiricism altogether, then, and at this point I have no argument with you.
It is only when you say, "The bible IS true, see, there's all this scientific evidence," that I can minutely examine what you say and be as demanding and picky about the science as I would for any other empirical claim.
quote:
First off watch the history channel program. They show INTELLIGENT views of archeologists, scholars, EVERYTHING. Maybe I'm wrong because it's on cable.
I'm sure the History Channel program is not completely terrible, but why bother with pop culture entertainment when there is actual unedited scholarship to be read. The Reader's Digest version of anything is not likely to cover much detail.
quote:
You ask me for evidence I provide then you COMPLAIN? What is that?
I am asking you for evidence of a certain quality.
You said that archeological evidence for things that happened in the Bible, places, people, etc., exists, amd that's a reason you believe in the Bible.
I pointed out that lots of Archaelogical evidence for many other people, places and events exists for many opther religions also.
When I said "So what", I meant to point out that it is not particularly impressive that the Bible had this supporting evidence because lots of other religions have evidence, too.
quote:
What do you have against CHRISTIANS?
Nothing at all.
I do have issues with any religious group that tries to pass their religion off as science, however.
quote:
Why don't you read the book for yourself???????? Go to a LIBRARY.
Because YOU provided it as evidence for your assertions, so YOU can do the leg work on the research.
If it is such a great Archaeology book, then why can't I find it mentioned at all at Archaeology - Archaeology Magazine?
quote:
It's fun restating what I said huh?
I NEVER SAID SCIENCE IS BIASED
Funny, it seemed to me that when you said, in defense of your posting of all christian websites, that EVERYONE is biased, which I took to mean that you thought that Christian and Scientific 'evidence' was equally biased.
Maybe you could explain what you meant?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Trump won, posted 10-01-2003 8:55 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Trump won, posted 10-04-2003 9:26 PM nator has replied

  
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