Prayer, faith and healing

Maybe no answer will satisfy you, which interestingly the Bible does say of unbelievers. For instance, do you know the power of the spoken word?
I have experienced this, yet I still think you'll tell me I didn't. Even though I am the one who knows, and has experienced it. So, if the believers who do not recieve healing are content, what right does the unbeliever have to be discontent? remember, despite their sufferings, they are nevertheless - Believers.'and if they try to brake down your disguise with their questions,you can hide, hide, hide - behind paranoid eyes' - Pink Floyd[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 10-04-2003]

I apologize for my post there. I was really angry. My post was edited 3? times just so I could delete things I said. Ok, when I called your post negative garbage I was referring to the times you nullified links because they were "christian".

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the truth is, all you have to say is "I know there's no real support for a lot of the stuff in the Bible, but I believe it anyway."

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But there is, all of what I've provided and more. I will know of more when I learn more, I couldn't provide like a more knowledgable christian could but I can and I have.

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You said that archeological evidence for things that happened in the Bible, places, people, etc., exists, amd that's a reason you believe in the Bible.

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I pointed out that lots of Archaelogical evidence for many other people, places and events exists for many opther religions also.

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When I said "So what", I meant to point out that it is not particularly impressive that the Bible had this supporting evidence because lots of other religions have evidence, too.

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You asked for historical evidence:

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Sorry, there is not much that is accurate about the Bible with regards to prophecy or history. { <------Right scholar.

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I gave you historical evidence, then you say "So what?"

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lots of other religions have evidence, too.

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And your evidence is.......?

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which I took to mean that you thought that Christian and Scientific 'evidence' was equally biased.

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So christians can't have scientific evidence?

Hello messenjaH,I primarily post on the biblical criticism forum, however, the issue of faith and belief is a concept that I have also long been interested in.I am not anti-religion. I was raised in a fundamentalist environment and, for the most part, the members of the church I attended were (and still are) wonderful, caring people.However, having always been a voracious reader (and in general, textually oriented), subsequent years of study and observation convinced me that the postulated foundations upon which my religious indoctrination rested, were far more tenuous than the casual adherent is led to believe.I don't advocate attacks on religion. Every Sunday several hundreds of people attend the church of their choice within walking distance of my home and not once have I ever approached any of them for the purpose of dissuading them from doing so.This, however, is not the church of your choice; it is a discussion forum. One in which you have voluntarily chosen to participate.Within this forum, then, these previously made points are both valid and justified:1)Belief is irrelevant to reasoned and supported argument. Everyday, innumerable people go about believing things that aren't true.2)Archaeological finds referencing historical people and places prove the bible? Legend has it that Rome was founded by the brothers Romulus and Remus. Thus, by your own logic, since Rome is historical, not only were Romulus and Remus actual persons, but also, all the legends concerning them are gospel truth.This area of biblical archaeology is one that has interested me for some time and I would be happy to discuss the implications of each and every example with you (one at a time).3)Beyond the placebo-like effect provided by any positive personal philosophy, faith-healing has no demonstrable veracity. There is, however, ample attestation that it involves single-point anomalies and even (at its worst) charlatanism.4)To be asked for textual or historical evidence in favor of your chosen religious perspective is also justified.The only alternative, (in lieu of this evidence), is that the Spirit is guiding you. This brings the discussion, circularly, back to point #1, since it can be shown that numerous people making identical claims to Spiritual guidance have as many conflicting viewpoints. Ergo, somebody's mistaken.Thus, along with the others on this board, I would still like to see a discussion of these points.Namaste'Amlodhi

Just to add my two cents worth.My father was a Fundie years ago before persons with his mind set were given the title of Fundies.As far as Faith goes,well my dad totally believed the Bible from cover to cover.He put his Christian God above everything includeing his family and talked to his God with claims of his God talking to him.He was Charismatic in his style of Christianity with a belief in the power of God for physical healings.As a child he would take me along with him on his visitations to the Hospital.Though I dreaded these visits of terminally ill patients,I was given no choice in the matter and drug along.I guess over the years I witnessed my dad lay his hands upon over a hundred of these dieing individuals and pray the prayer of faith.I never recall not even one of them surviveing.The disease ran it's course and they died.

Amlodhi covered everything in their reply that I would hhave liked to, so I will not waste space saying the same things in a different way.It's OK that you got angry, Mike. I know you are a good kid and were only having a moment. We all have those moments.

doyle, you just described the way I used to believe. I was a fundie for years and while I have witnessed a few things that I cannot explain (not to say there is no explantion for them), I have never seen any evidence that healing is happening anywhere. Faith healers that have glasses, and/or are over-weight or just old age seem to not enjoy the healing that they dole out. I have heard actual modern day (in the past 20 years)resurrections preached from the pulpit. A church out east in Columbus Ohio (that is nationally syndicated) boasts of healings everytime the doors are open! You'd think that the hospitals in Columbus would be empty
I heard it said that even if a person that was healed submitted proof, that unbelievers still would not believe.
I am fairly certain that if such evidence existed, I for one would be very close to believing again.

Mike?

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1)Belief is irrelevant to reasoned and supported argument. Everyday, innumerable people go about believing things that aren't true.

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Yes....

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2)Archaeological finds referencing historical people and places prove the bible? Legend has it that Rome was founded by the brothers Romulus and Remus. Thus, by your own logic, since Rome is historical, not only were Romulus and Remus actual persons, but also, all the legends concerning them are gospel truth.

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I was asked to prove the bible historically, see above on my last post on what Schraf said. This is not MY logic. I am simply answering what I am asked.

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3)Beyond the placebo-like effect provided by any positive personal philosophy, faith-healing has no demonstrable veracity. There is, however, ample attestation that it involves single-point anomalies and even (at its worst) charlatanism.

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4)To be asked for textual or historical evidence in favor of your chosen religious perspective is also justified.

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The only alternative, (in lieu of this evidence), is that the Spirit is guiding you. This brings the discussion, circularly, back to point #1, since it can be shown that numerous people making identical claims to Spiritual guidance have as many conflicting viewpoints. Ergo, somebody's mistaken.

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Thus, along with the others on this board, I would still like to see a discussion of these points.

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Namaste'

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Amlodhi

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Ok... But I am answering what I am being questioned on...

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This area of biblical archaeology is one that has interested me for some time and I would be happy to discuss the implications of each and every example with you (one at a time).

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Hey Amlodhi - as it happens I'm interested in this particular field as well, ever since I read a book by David Rohl called 'A Test of Time'. Would you like to start up another thread about it?The Rock Hound

Hello Rock Hound,

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Originally posted by IrishRockhound

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Would you like to start up another thread about (biblical archaeology)?

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Sure. Perhaps messenjaH and the others will join us.I'm fairly new here; which forum do you think would be most appropriate?Namaste'Amlodhi

Whoops, sorry.

np, I got confused for a second lol.

That evidence will never exist.There may be flim flams that appear to be authentic but the genuine will never be.It would be nice if there were a being that loved us and watched over us but that is just wishful thinking.The problem is when the wishful thinking becomes a justification for all sorts of savagery.There is no evidence of physical healing but plenty of evidence of physical killing.

I think miscellaneous topics. It doesn't fit anywhere else, and the admin can move it if they think it belongs in a particular forum.Now, what should we debate about?The Rock Hound

Hi Rock Hound,I suspect that whether it's a debate or a discussion will depend on who shows up. Miscellaneous topics sounds right to me also.Perhaps we should start by going through the list that messenjaH posted (#45). Maybe he and some of the others will join us in taking a closer look at the implications of the examples he provided.It is late here tonight, if I don't see a post from you there tomorrow I will start something off.Namaste'Amlodhi