Why Belief?

How do you know that the man and the van in your mums story are the man and the van involved in the killings?How do you know that the prayer stopped the van? Tell that to the poor souls whose loved ones jumped from the Twin Towers, or who were taken hostage and killed in Iraq, or who were blown up in Inneskillen. Did their prayers change things for the better?I'm sure there's some excuse though, there always is. These horrific, heartbreaking tragedies are all forgotten when a prayer happens to be part of a coincidence.Prayers are always answered, the answer might not be the one you wanted but they are all answered. Bit poinltess really don't you think since there is no way to prove that a prayer was answered or not?Brian.

I fail to see the connection. The driver could have had a change of heart, the police could be stopping traffic up ahead to interview people, the driver may have had a phone call to go somewhere quickly, there are lots of reasons. The prayer might simply be a coincidence. What specific views are you talking about? Because it makes the entire prayer game redundant. All it does is to convince the believer that when anything at all that they pray for comes to pass, in some way, then hey presto God has answered the prayer. If they do not get what they prayed for then they inoke the 'God has said no' clause. It makes prayer pointless. Or pretty coincidental. It is weird that prayers from believers from all faiths appear to be answered sometime or another. I reckon old Yahweh musn't be a jealous god after all. Even if he wasn't the murderer it is a great accomplishment for a normally useless entity to do.BTW, how would we test to see if it was the lady's prayer that prompted God to stop the van?Brian

Stuck in a world of self-fulfilling prophecy specter. God cannot lose in your world, you will always have an excuse for Him.Of course we dont focus on the bad, and we shouldn't focus just on the good either. We should look at everything, and in doing so we need to conclude that God is completely useless or a complete barbarian.I can see what is wrong with our world, and a great deal of it is caused by religion. In fact, most of it is. I also have a solution, the funides should bugger off to their paradise and leave the rest of us alone to live out our lives in a safer world. Such as? Oh that breast cancer you were talking about, why did God create that I wonder, or should I focus on the knowledge he gave our doctors to help cure some cases?The thing that you don't see is that the world of God is a fantasy world created in your mind, and you are simply keeping this delusion going by making these excuses all the time. it is easy to do, we could convince ourselves that Sauron is coming back if we really put our minds to it.It must be great to have such faith, and good luck to you. I personally prefer reality, but that isnt every one's cup of tea.Cheers.Brian.

Any point in stating the obvious?

I am not sure if you have some sort of problem understanding what people write, but no one said that there would be no death or no suffering or no anything else.If you read what I wrote closely enough you would see that I claimed: and a great deal of it is caused by religion. In fact, most of it is. A lot of time would be saved if you read carefully.Brian.

Which is a conclusion based on what a religion says. This sinful nature is really nothing more than a device for explaining why God is so useless. In your interpretation maybe. I could do without John Lennon.If we removed religion (which is never going to happen)then a great deal of these borders woudl be removed. For example, people wouldn't bethrown of their land because an ancient book of mythology says someone's God promised them this land. You mean we would start getting atheist suicide bombers? I wonder why so many suicide bombers are affliated to one religoin or another? I don't know if it is blatant misuse or not. Who is to say that Torquemada abused religion or not? I think to say that someone is abusing a religion is again down to your interpretation of the data.I certainly think that there are very few Christians out there, but that is also my interpretation of the texts.There is certainly no contest between the horrors of atheism and the horrors of theism. The theistic faiths cannot live with one another, in fact, many of them cannot even live with their own kind, they will always find something to fight about. It may be whether a child should or should not be baptised, but they will find something.You may want to say that these people are abusing religion, but they seem to be able to justify what they are doing by using their holy books.Christians have certainly had their fair share of Holy Wars.Brian.

A small problem here.This sending by God of his one and only son has been the single most catastrophic event in the history of the world, God must really hate His creation when we take His omniscience into consideration.Brian.

Well, tell me, based on the Holy Books of the theistic faiths, what other options are there? Because almost every major atrocity has had a religious element to it. Look at a handful of major historical atrocities and tell me if religon had any part to play in them. Then get back to me. Where have I said anything about Middle Eastern Religions?Brian.

Well, there are other groups outside of the Middle Eastern faiths that have suicide bombers.A Hindu suicide bomber killed the Sri Lanka president Ranasinghe Premadasa in 1993.The Temple of the Tooth, a Buddhist Holy Place was targeted by Hindu suicide bombers in 1998.There’s more, but you get the drift. I suppose it could be, depends on the individual.The general atrocities attributed to Christianity had nothing to do with my own decision to leave it. I just couldn’t accept it anymore, it is an insult to one’s intelligence.Brian.

God sends God to be sacrificed to God to correct an error made by God.Doesn't get sillier than that.Brian.

I think my position of why Christianity is an insult to one's intelligence may drag this off topic, but I'm happy to start another thread on the subject. Would need to be after Friday though, I've got a few finishing touches to put to something.Brian.

That's the one!But let's save it (and God's errors) for another thread.

Well, I cannot claim the credit for this, the credit belongs to the authors of the Bible. Not indirectly, but directly.El wasn't exactly the cleverest god in the Canaanite pantheon, and if you read the Bible carefully you will see that He is pretty thick. The other Canaanite gods must have everytime El said something. Okay I promise not to use that one, I hadn't thought of that actually.Brian.

I would remove 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' from your list as God quite explicitly commands people to kill, Joshua for example, so this commandment is not a rigid one.I would also remove 'Thou Shalt Not Steal, because it is not a rigid one either as God also commands people to steal other people's property. Palestine would be the prime example of this. And we know full well that many people worked extra hard to take a great deal of land off the Palestinians based on the Conquest myth.I would also remove 'Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness' as God Himself is happy to lie to people, a la King AhabI also suppose those who kill, steal, or lie, also dishonour their parents in a way, so perhaps we should remove this too?So, it doesn't really leave many religious elements.Its fine and well to say that atrocities reject these religious elements but the God of the Old testament explicitly commands peole to break most of them. So, if God can sanction Joshua's slaughtering of thousands of innocent people then why should killing be considered 'unreligious'? Wouldn't you consider that it is just because humans are prone to these 'weaknesses' that the Bible authors made them into the commandments? But we dont get secular societies attempting genocide on another society because of religion (Cathars for example). Atheists do not kill in the name of a God, many theists do, and will continue to do so. If killing is so unreligious then why have Bishops blessed so many armies before they go into battle? Why don't these bishops declare how ungodly killing is? And then go right on making the same mistakes? I quite agree and it would be silly of me to suggest this, that's why I said a great deal of suffering would be removed. We wouldn't have people blowing themselves up in the name of Allah, or doctors at abortion clinics being murdered, or a whole range of other horrendous events. But, as I say, we have the Old Testament God explicitly commanding humans to kill, rape, and steal. So, religious types can find justification in these commands.Also, how many people are homophobic based soley on their reading of the Bible? Well, ultimately, I would agree, but I believe that humans created god and not vice versa. I also agree that humans frequently misuse religion for their own ends, but if that religion wasn't there then would they really find that many other excuses to carry out atrocities? The thing about religion is that it is a very powerful driving force, people become obsessed with following their god and I cannot think of a greater motivation than thinking that you are serving this greater being. Well, we won't know this for sure because there always will be religions, its a fact of life.Brian.

Even the peace loving Buddhist have a history of militancy. Remember that the Tokyo subway poisoned gas attack was carried out by Buddhists.On a purely traditional front, there are also stories of Bodhisattva's murdering people because they knew that these people would murder others later in life.Brian.