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Author Topic:   Why Belief?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 136 of 220 (207871)
05-13-2005 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by CK
05-13-2005 4:36 PM


Re: Test and see..
I see, all the poverty in the world for millennia has been caused by the absence of condoms. And now that they are distributed in the high schools we have less poverty, right? And without religion there never would have been ethnic or tribal wars anywhere on this earth, right? And nobody on this earth for millennia ever raped or murdered or molested a child without doing it in the name of religion, right? Gee, you guys are quite an eyeopening experience to me. I never woulda thunk it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by CK, posted 05-13-2005 4:36 PM CK has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 137 of 220 (207878)
05-13-2005 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Faith
05-13-2005 4:37 PM


Re: Test and see..
The obvious? Death is caused by religion? Without religion nobody would ever die? Interesting thnking there. And without religion nobody would ever get sick? That's obvious too huh? And nobody would ever commit murder or rape or harm children if there were no religion? Stalinism was based on religion rather than opposed to religion? News to me. That's quite a paradise you have in mind if only religion went away.
I am not sure if you have some sort of problem understanding what people write, but no one said that there would be no death or no suffering or no anything else.
If you read what I wrote closely enough you would see that I claimed:
and a great deal of it is caused by religion. In fact, most of it is.
A lot of time would be saved if you read carefully.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Faith, posted 05-13-2005 4:37 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Faith, posted 05-13-2005 7:15 PM Brian has not replied
 Message 139 by Phat, posted 05-14-2005 3:47 PM Brian has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 138 of 220 (207882)
05-13-2005 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Brian
05-13-2005 6:21 PM


Re: Test and see..
Sorry, I did lose track but not for not reading. Let's review the sequence. Yes you said "most" and that's the word I used in Message 132, though I didn't repeat it in my list, since I assumed it, to which you replied somewhat cryptically in Message 133 that my list was pretty obvious, which sure sounds like you think an awful LOT of all those things are caused by religion, if not all, and in Message 134 Charles Knight made no distinctions whatever, apparently just about equating the evils of poverty, murder etc. with religion, and in Message 135 it is true I was no longer making the distinction. So let me make it now:
The obvious? Death is caused by religion? Without religion nobody would ever die? Interesting thnking there. And without religion nobody would ever get sick? That's obvious too huh? And nobody would ever commit murder or rape or harm children if there were no religion? Stalinism was based on religion rather than opposed to religion? News to me. That's quite a paradise you have in mind if only religion went away.
Allow me to be more precise: The obvious? MOST death is caused by religion? Without religion MOST PEOPLE wouldn't die? Interesting thinking there. And without religion MOST PEOPLE would never get sick? That's obvious too, huh? And MOST murders, rapes and child molestations would just disappear without religion? Really? And horrendous murderous regimes such as Stalin's are MOSTLY the result of religion even though they are anti-religion and persecuted and murdered Christians and Jews because of their beliefs? So you really think MOST of these evils would just disappear without religion?
Then in Message 136 I answered Charles Knight's unqualified statements with unqualified statements of my own:
I see, all the poverty in the world for millennia has been caused by the absence of condoms. And now that they are distributed in the high schools we have less poverty, right? And without religion there never would have been ethnic or tribal wars anywhere on this earth, right? And nobody on this earth for millennia ever raped or murdered or molested a child without doing it in the name of religion, right? Gee, you guys are quite an eyeopening experience to me. I never woulda thunk it.
...which I will now also qualify:
So MOST of the poverty of the millennia has been the result of an absence of condoms and we now have so much LESS poverty now that we are distributing condoms in the high schools? Actually the condoms either don't get used or fail more times than anybody expects and what we are doing really is actively encouraging the very activity that no society on this earth has ever encouraged until the last few decades, that leads to the birth of fatherless babies with working mothers who can barely support them, leading to more dependence on welfare, all real helps toward ending poverty. GREAT reasoning there.
And MOST tribal and ethnic wars over the millennia have been religious based wars? I'd really like to see you prove that. And MOST rapes, murders and molestations have been committed by priests, right?
This message has been edited by Faith, 05-13-2005 07:20 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Brian, posted 05-13-2005 6:21 PM Brian has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 139 of 220 (208100)
05-14-2005 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Brian
05-13-2005 6:21 PM


Re: Test and see..
Brian writes:
...and a great deal of it is caused by religion.
I would say that a great deal of it is caused by sinful human nature...which abuses religion. Were there no religion, we would not live blissfyully in an imaginary land with no borders and John Lennon. We would be as sinful and greedy and prideful as ever. It would express itself different ways. Perhaps, Brian, what you mean't to say was that much of the ugliness of humanity has been expressed through the blatant misuse of religion and in the name of religion.
Which I agree with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Brian, posted 05-13-2005 6:21 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Faith, posted 05-16-2005 2:53 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 141 by Brian, posted 05-16-2005 6:40 AM Phat has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 140 of 220 (208533)
05-16-2005 2:53 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Phat
05-14-2005 3:47 PM


Re: Test and see..
I would say that a great deal of it is caused by sinful human nature...which abuses religion. Were there no religion, we would not live blissfyully in an imaginary land with no borders and John Lennon. We would be as sinful and greedy and prideful as ever. It would express itself different ways.
I agree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Phat, posted 05-14-2005 3:47 PM Phat has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 141 of 220 (208548)
05-16-2005 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Phat
05-14-2005 3:47 PM


Re: Test and see..
I would say that a great deal of it is caused by sinful human nature...
Which is a conclusion based on what a religion says. This sinful nature is really nothing more than a device for explaining why God is so useless.
which abuses religion.
In your interpretation maybe.
Were there no religion, we would not live blissfyully in an imaginary land with no borders and John Lennon. We would be as sinful and greedy and prideful as ever.
I could do without John Lennon.
If we removed religion (which is never going to happen)then a great deal of these borders woudl be removed. For example, people wouldn't bethrown of their land because an ancient book of mythology says someone's God promised them this land.
It would express itself different ways.
You mean we would start getting atheist suicide bombers? I wonder why so many suicide bombers are affliated to one religoin or another?
Perhaps, Brian, what you mean't to say was that much of the ugliness of humanity has been expressed through the blatant misuse of religion and in the name of religion.
I don't know if it is blatant misuse or not. Who is to say that Torquemada abused religion or not? I think to say that someone is abusing a religion is again down to your interpretation of the data.
I certainly think that there are very few Christians out there, but that is also my interpretation of the texts.
There is certainly no contest between the horrors of atheism and the horrors of theism. The theistic faiths cannot live with one another, in fact, many of them cannot even live with their own kind, they will always find something to fight about. It may be whether a child should or should not be baptised, but they will find something.
You may want to say that these people are abusing religion, but they seem to be able to justify what they are doing by using their holy books.
Christians have certainly had their fair share of Holy Wars.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Phat, posted 05-14-2005 3:47 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Phat, posted 05-16-2005 8:41 AM Brian has replied
 Message 147 by Faith, posted 05-16-2005 12:17 PM Brian has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 142 of 220 (208571)
05-16-2005 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Brian
05-16-2005 6:40 AM


Re: Test and see..
Brian writes:
This sinful nature is really nothing more than a device for explaining why God is so useless.
No, it is rather an example of why God is so necessary. Humans are as barbaric now as they were 2000 years ago. Nothing has evolved. Nothing has changed. Nothing except that 2000 years ago, God so loved the world that He sent His one and only son that whosoever(who so chooses)to believe in Him will not perish but will have everlasting life. (Not just a brief chance at a mating dance to pridefully pass on ones heritage via children)
But then again, this is all a matter of Faith and Belief, is it not?

"It is as impossible for man to demonstrate the existence of God as it would be for even Sherlock Holmes to demonstrate the existence of Arthur Conan Doyle."
---
"Religion points to that area of human experience where in one way or another man comes upon mystery as a summons to pilgrimage."
---
"People are prepared for everything except for the fact that beyond the darkness of their blindness there is a great light. They are prepared to go on breaking their backs plowing the same old field until the cows come home without seeing, until they stub their toes on it, that there is a treasure buried in that field rich enough to buy Texas. They are prepared for a God who strikes hard bargains but not for a God who gives as much for an hour's work as for a day's. They are prepared for a mustard-seed kingdom of God no bigger than the eye of a newt but not for the great banyan it becomes with birds in its branches singing Mozart. They are prepared for the potluck supper at First Presbyterian but not for the marriage supper of the lamb".
Frederick Buechner

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Brian, posted 05-16-2005 6:40 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Brian, posted 05-16-2005 9:12 AM Phat has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 143 of 220 (208577)
05-16-2005 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Phat
05-16-2005 8:41 AM


Re: Test and see..
Nothing except that 2000 years ago, God so loved the world that He sent His one and only son that whosoever(who so chooses)to believe in Him will not perish but will have everlasting life.
A small problem here.
This sending by God of his one and only son has been the single most catastrophic event in the history of the world, God must really hate His creation when we take His omniscience into consideration.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Phat, posted 05-16-2005 8:41 AM Phat has not replied

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 144 of 220 (208593)
05-16-2005 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Faith
05-13-2005 3:57 PM


Re: Particular Influences
Faith writes:
YOu weren't trying to get a deeper understanding of anything as you ignored most of what I said about my experience of conversion. You are simply trying to prove that I'm wrong, no matter what I say about my own experience. You really think YOU know what went on in another human being's experience against EVERYTHING that person tells you. That's objectionable.
As objectionable as you presuming that I am lying?
You openly say that what I told you about my motives is untrue. You really think YOU know what my motives are against everything I told you! Hurling accusations and judgement while doing the very same thing in the very same paragraph doesn't lend credence to your point of view.
Along with that you strongly implied that I am a liar. Why do you think I deserved that? I don't recall calling you a liar. Just because I point out possibilities that counter your point of view does not mean I am saying you are trying to deceive anyone.
Faith writes:
Why are you insisting that such experiences had more of an impact on me than on the others who had such experiences and became and stayed atheists or became Buddhists or something else?
I'm not. I doubt that their experiences were exactly what yours were...maybe not even close. Perhaps a comparison of theirs to yours would be enlightening. Even if they were the same, what makes you think the results would be exactly the same? I don't believe we are only the product of our experiences.
Faith writes:
You will not address the Chinese and Indian Christians who had no Christian cultural influence, or all over the world, huge churches in Africa too for instance and maybe the biggest in the world in South Korea
I didn't know that foreign churches were part of the discussion. However there are many reasons for the influence of the Christian church in those nations. One of those is the spiritual climate in population of those nations (as opposed to the spiritual climate of the government). Another may be the influence of the missionaries. Do you think discussion of this may have relevance to the topic of the beginning of your belief?
Faith writes:
This whole cultural hypothesis is garbage that cannot be applied to specific individual experience but you are going to make me swallow it anyway aren't you?
Then you don't believe that culture has influence on specific individual experience? Why are missionaries trained on the culture in which they will be evangelizing if it has no application? Perhaps I am over-generalizing. At what level of individual experience does the culture no longer have any influence? What indications are there that the culture is not influencing experience at that level?
Faith writes:
What they (Hindu guru's) were really talking about I don't know, but it was something external and real. It was really only the reality of the supernatural I believed in at that point, VERY far from the God of the Bible, but it became the basis of my intense explorations from that point on, and as I've said, the little I'd learned in church about God did figure at least in my idea of what I was seeking.
You believed in the reality of the supernatural before you read what the Hindu's had to say about their experiences? If so, what brought about this belief in the supernatural?
If not, then do you feel that God's supernatural intervention was placing that book or article in your path?
Also: What was it about the Hindu's evidence or their belief that persuaded you that the supernatural did exist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Faith, posted 05-13-2005 3:57 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by jar, posted 05-16-2005 11:26 AM LinearAq has not replied
 Message 146 by Faith, posted 05-16-2005 11:50 AM LinearAq has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 145 of 220 (208618)
05-16-2005 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by LinearAq
05-16-2005 10:17 AM


Chinese and Indian Christian Churches
I'm pretty sure that British (or American) gunboats and troops had little to with Christian churches being in India, China or Hawaii.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by LinearAq, posted 05-16-2005 10:17 AM LinearAq has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 146 of 220 (208624)
05-16-2005 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by LinearAq
05-16-2005 10:17 AM


Re: Particular Influences
Then you don't believe that culture has influence on specific individual experience?
Not when a person has gone to great lengths post after post after post to show that it didn't in a particular case about which she should know more than anybody else!!!
I have not generalized this. I am talking about my own experience.
I guess you don't think of what you are saying as offensive so somehow I'm going to have to learn to put up with it.
Why are missionaries trained on the culture in which they will be evangelizing if it has no application? Perhaps I am over-generalizing.
I have not generalized this. I am talking about my own experience.
As for why missionaries are trained in the culture of the group they are evangelizing it's in order to understand them, obviously, so as to be better able to communicate with them. Often they have concepts or legends that help the gospel make sense to them.
This has nothing to do with whether in my case my Christian culture is what led me to Christ. I am telling you that its effect was about as minimal as you can get and I've SHOWN this to be the case.
quote:
You believed in the reality of the supernatural before you read what the Hindu's had to say about their experiences? If so, what brought about this belief in the supernatural?
I have no idea where you got the idea I hadn't read what they had to say. I already said I read it. They were talking about personal experiences of something they called "God."
As a result I believed in God from what they said, but as I later came to know God I realized my first belief wasn't really about God, and that they were talking about an experience I would no longer recognize as God. I then realized IN RETROSPECT that what really happened at that point was that I believed in supernatural reality. It was much later that my belief in God became really a belief in God. That is what I meant to say. I hope it makes sense.
quote:
If not, then do you feel that God's supernatural intervention was placing that book or article in your path?
Yes I do.
quote:
Also: What was it about the Hindu's evidence or their belief that persuaded you that the supernatural did exist?
It was the fact that two and I think it might have been three -- I skimmed through a lot of books that day -- talked of experiencing God, the word "God" the idea "God." I was used to New Age and Eastern ideas about experiencing the "Self" or the "Higher Self" or "Enlightenment" or the "White Light" or Inner Light and the like, but never GOD. It was a shock to me that they claimed God was real.
Now, God I could love, though I couldn't love the Self or the White Light etc. After that I was briefly interested in Bhakti Yoga that emphasizes worship or adoration of "God" -- but they don't focus on THE God so I quickly lost interest. I WAS looking for THE God, wanted to know what He is really like, I wasn't interested in having an experience, in being enlightened or any of that, but in knowing God, who He really is, knowing Him.
THAT much I guess you could say comes from my childhood Christian understanding of God, just because it is a Biblical idea, that there is ONE all-knowing everywhere-present God who deserves our love, but I couldn't prove that I ever had the idea before that moment, all I know is that was pretty much my idea of God from that moment on.
Let me try to be clearer again. They were talking about personal experiences of something they called God. I believed them. That started me believing in God though not God as I later came to understand Him. But what did happen at that point was that at least I definitely believed in the reality of the supernatural.
I didn't at the time THINK I was merely believing in the supernatural. It's just that in retrospect I know that I believed at least that much. It started me exploring all kinds of occultic things, oracles like the I Ching, tarot, runes, astrology, which in Hinduism is perfectly acceptable though it is warned against in Christianity -- and also warned against in Buddhism I understand.
SO, I no longer believe that their experience was about God, but definitely that it was about a supernatural experience of something they called God but was probably demonic, since I know I encountered the demonic in my occultic explorations.
I hope this is clear.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by LinearAq, posted 05-16-2005 10:17 AM LinearAq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by LinearAq, posted 05-16-2005 2:27 PM Faith has replied
 Message 152 by Phat, posted 05-16-2005 5:56 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 147 of 220 (208636)
05-16-2005 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Brian
05-16-2005 6:40 AM


Re: Test and see..
You mean we would start getting atheist suicide bombers? I wonder why so many suicide bombers are affliated to one religoin or another?
Love how you turn the actions of ONE "religion" into a generalization about "one religion or another." Have you no sense of responsibility to tell the truth, no integrity whatever?
quote:
I would say that a great deal of it is caused by sinful human nature...
====
Which is a conclusion based on what a religion says. This sinful nature is really nothing more than a device for explaining why God is so useless.
10 O God, how long will the adversary reproach?
Will the enemy blaspheme Your name forever?
18 Remember this, that the enemy has reproached, O Lord,
And that a foolish people has blasphemed Your name.
22 Arise, O God, plead Your own cause;
Remember how the foolish man reproaches You daily.
23 Do not forget the voice of Your enemies;
The tumult of those who rise up against You increases continually.
Psalm 74: 10, 18, 22, 23.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Brian, posted 05-16-2005 6:40 AM Brian has not replied

  
Specter
Inactive Member


Message 148 of 220 (208649)
05-16-2005 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Brian
05-13-2005 1:35 PM


Word on it!
Word on it!
Brian writes:
Of course we dont focus on the bad, and we shouldn't focus just on the good either. We should look at everything, and in doing so we need to conclude that God is completely useless or a complete barbarian.
Well, excuse me if you will, but who's to say what we need to believe in? I could believe in an orange-hued outer space (not saying I do, BTW). Just because I believe in it doesn't make it factual. I see your point, but then again, I don't see it.
So do all of us a huge favor and tell us why you think the world's troubles are caused by religion? Or is it caused by doctrine?
And just what is your problem with the Middle Eastern Religions?
This message has been edited by Specter, 05/16/2005 12:47 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Brian, posted 05-13-2005 1:35 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Brian, posted 05-16-2005 2:12 PM Specter has replied
 Message 151 by lfen, posted 05-16-2005 2:31 PM Specter has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 149 of 220 (208681)
05-16-2005 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Specter
05-16-2005 12:39 PM


Re: Word on it!
Well, excuse me if you will, but who's to say what we need to believe in? I could believe in an orange-hued outer space (not saying I do, BTW).
Well, tell me, based on the Holy Books of the theistic faiths, what other options are there?
So do all of us a huge favor and tell us why you think the world's troubles are caused by religion?
Because almost every major atrocity has had a religious element to it. Look at a handful of major historical atrocities and tell me if religon had any part to play in them. Then get back to me.
And just what is your problem with the Middle Eastern Religions?
Where have I said anything about Middle Eastern Religions?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Specter, posted 05-16-2005 12:39 PM Specter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Specter, posted 05-17-2005 8:38 AM Brian has replied
 Message 166 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 05-17-2005 2:24 PM Brian has replied

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 150 of 220 (208686)
05-16-2005 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Faith
05-16-2005 11:50 AM


Heart of the search
Faith writes:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You believed in the reality of the supernatural before you read what the Hindu's had to say about their experiences? If so, what brought about this belief in the supernatural?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have no idea where you got the idea I hadn't read what they had to say. I already said I read it. They were talking about personal experiences of something they called "God."
Sorry, bad phrasing of my question. I should have written, "Are you saying you believed in the reality of the supernatural before you read what the Hindu's had to say about their experiences? The timeline of your spiritual growth was not clear to me then.
Faith writes:
After that I was briefly interested in Bhakti Yoga that emphasizes worship or adoration of "God" -- but they don't focus on THE God so I quickly lost interest. I WAS looking for THE God, wanted to know what He is really like, I wasn't interested in having an experience, in being enlightened or any of that, but in knowing God, who He really is, knowing Him.
Assuming that you never "had the idea before that moment", what was it that gave you the indication that the Bhakti Yoga was not focusing on "THE God"?
Faith writes:
SO, I no longer believe that their experience was about God, but definitely that it was about a supernatural experience of something they called God but was probably demonic, since I know I encountered the demonic in my occultic explorations.
When did you know you encountered the demonic, before or after the Hindu book?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Faith, posted 05-16-2005 11:50 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Faith, posted 05-17-2005 11:39 AM LinearAq has replied

  
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