What makes you unbelieve Crash ?

Born2Preach,re: ...there is no believer alive today that I know of without doubt.Are you saying that John 3:16 could be written: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that even if someone doubts it, as long as they think that there might be a chance that He is the son of God, that they should not perish, but have everlasting life?

quote:

---

Go ahead Schraff, tout that there is no evidence for God - it won't effect his existence.

---

Call me cruel, but I had to point this out. The word "effect" when used as a verb means "put into effect" or "make it happen." On the other hand, "affect" is probably what you meant. It's funny how little details dramatically alter the meaning of phrases....

Maybe, but it's easy to cover-up doubt when all you see of someone is symbols they input onto an internet forum.Also, if they didn't have at least a slight bit of doubt they probably wouldn't feel the need to debate and discuss these topics with people of other backgrounds. I know doubt is what made me stumble on this site, anyway. So they reach a conclusion based upon feeling rather than logic, therefore they are arrogant? And I'm not getting into which religion is the right one as of now(in fact I was only giving a pointer), but I've got no doubt most of them have the same feeling. They could very well have that feeling which does let God show himself at least to the individual, but misinterpret which God it is. Still doesn't make them arrogant.By the way, I read that post from 'laserman' or whoever. The way that's set up I'm sure he's got some serious subconscious doubt about his faith, so he's rallying behind it for everything he's got. I don't know if you ever were into organized religion, but it's really hard to have it torn down in front of you. That's why people come on here to try and defend it; not just for others but for their own peace of spirit.

---

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

No, I'm not saying that, I'm saying what I'm saying. But in all seriousness, the Bible also talks about the flesh which does its share in deception and doubt. We're all supposed to have it even after our Rebirth, so I guess we all have some doubt according to scripture, huh?

---

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

quote:

---

So they reach a conclusion based upon feeling rather than logic, therefore they are arrogant?

---

It is arrogant to reach a conclusion based upon emotion that rejects all other possibilities that have the same basis.It's not arrogant to decide out of emotion.It's arrogant to say, "I feel that my belief is correct, and THEREFORE everyone who doesn't believe as I do is wrong.It is the inability or unwillingness to consider alternatives to what they have decided is correct, once and for all, that is problematic for me. I know how limited humans' perceptions are and how prone to wishful thinking we are. We have a strong tendency to believe and seek out information/feel feelings that make us feel comforted and reassured rather than what may be true. (kind of like holocaust deniers or mothers who don't want to know that their children are being molested by their step-fathers, so they rationalize all the signs they see)I find it amazing that anyone thinks they know anything at all about the supernatural based upon our extremely malleable feelings.

quote:

---

By the way, I read that post from 'laserman' or whoever. The way that's set up I'm sure he's got some serious subconscious doubt about his faith, so he's rallying behind it for everything he's got. I don't know if you ever were into organized religion, but it's really hard to have it torn down in front of you. That's why people come on here to try and defend it; not just for others but for their own peace of spirit.

---

I am sure it must be very difficult.I was raised a Catholic, went to 12 years of catechism, but never was really a deep believer. I began the process of becoming an Agnostic in my early twenties after college, during which I stopped going to church and realized that nothing bad happened.So, I guess I can't really relate much to having a spiritual crisis because my faith was always pretty weak, even as a really young child.It's just sad that someone feels that they must tie their entire faith on the idea that a certain interpretation of their holy book must be literally true.That seems more like worshipping the Bible than God.

I didn't call you a know it all, I said in a world of know it alls. Only - I didn't call you a know it all in the first place, so now you call me it ans, and ,and.....I will admitt that I am completely sure that God exists. But you have to understand - I really am nutty. Evidence for me would be our own existence, yet it is more of a "belief", it's not like I am forcing this topic onto you or science Schraf. (aharrgh hargggh...cries and moans - Schraffy hates me, tears role down cheeks. ) Fair enough, atleast you haven't dismissed the truth altogether. You do realize though, that I have never been a suicide bomber. Maybe those guys are the bad guys, and not the christians who you argue with everyday on this forum. (Me ) But does this mean that you imply that people of belief become suicide bombers? Isn't that a generalization? - I have belief and no doubt in God, yet surely that doesn't logically make me a suicide bomber. So you agree I have good reason to believe then? And my prayers are indeed answered - thanks. Your lack of faith is disturbing - Darth vader. Tee hee hee, don't encourage me. Because so many people come up with such strange things. People in this forum have given me "evolutions answers" to things like religious experiences etc. Saying that the "God" part of the brain is because of evolution. People are snake fascinated with evolution. They ask it questions like it is a god, and make there own answers. If only they would stick to the science of it and not the philosophy, or "why". Many here, including you, have said how we are just evolved and are another animal, and that seems to imply we are not made in the image of God. Basically, your theory is an obsession to people, they worship the creature because of it, and not the Creator. Give God the glory. Also, other things. Apparently "samaritan acts" or giving to charity is now explained as "looking after the genes of humans for our selfish continuation".
Such a teaching makes out that an act of unselfishness is infact selfishness.Many other things make God's words of none-affect. And seek to destroy the truth of the bible. And look here, there is even a "bible forum" so you can attack my so called "religion". I could go on, but basically you people have got my dander up with your obsessionf for the evolution mind.

mike I am sorry if I missed something... so please correct I just skimmed the topic ... 10 pages is alot to go through.Anyway can you list the reasons its "obvious" God/a god of any kind exists?...How something you want to happen happening prove to you a god exists?Also can you Please list other reasons why its "obvious" to you God exists beside prayer?

Heh, noticed you taking on my whole selfish genes thing there Mike. Although if u read i have great optimism for humanities, so although i believe a lot of things we do had selfish beginnings, ive also said that humans do have the capacity for altruism. Im not explaining everything through selfishness, just saying that in terms of genes, selfishness is just one of those theories that seems to work everytime in the animal kingdom (humans being the xception, our ability to think has caused some problems, plus its not as if there is any particular selective pressure on us any more).Please accept that i have great belief in our ability to break our selfish tendancies. I just find it amusing (yes amusing is the right word, i give myself a little chortle if i spot myself doing it) how selfish tendancies can explain things that at first glance seem perfectly innocent (btw i do this for any behaviour type jobby thing, for instance most made people (and most twitchy people) goto a rythym of 72 beats a minute (roughly) this is thought to be, and has good evidence, very close to the continuos rythym u hear in the womb, its extremely comforting).DC85, the topic has sorta strayed, but is roughly on track. I think on the whole we have once again come to the conclusion that athiest disbleive due to no logical evidence. Believers believe because surely its obvious he exists, and prayers do seem to be answered. And agnostics dont really care that much either way, just look for good science/explainations. Anyone wanna add anything important to that?Unseul

---

Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life....

Unseul,re: "I think on the whole we have once again come to the conclusion that atheist disbelieve due to no logical evidence. Believers believe because surely its obvious he exists, and prayers do seem to be answered. And agnostics don’t really care that much either way, just look for good science/explanations. Anyone wanna add anything important to that?"Do you think that there is conscious CHOICE involved with any of those positions?

Erm yeah. I believe we have choice in just about every situation, admittedly that choice may be severely limited in many ways. But on religous bases, especially in an open society, then yeah theres a choice. I know i made a choice to be an athiest, it wasnt just thrust upon me.Unseul

---

Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life....

Okay - fair enough. I am not attacking you though, as others have shown this same kind of "evolution" philosophy. I am glad you are here Unseul, immediately I find your posts very interesting and you have a pleasant manner. That's not selfish, as it has no evolutionary tendancy. You have summed it up correctly super bunny. (This proves super bunnies are real). The fact is we are all partakers in a specific mindset. If we are honest - we cannot make any conclusion really. I myself think that it comes down to the individual. That's why I posted this in the belief section.Schrafinator said that she once had a weak faith, she seems to not therefore, understand my own faith and so she usually ends up talking about evidence.PS> Thanks for your support in the other thread, where Rrhain spoke against me.

quote:

---

I didn't call you a know it all, I said in a world of know it alls.

​

Only - I didn't call you a know it all in the first place, so now you call me it ans, and ,and....

---

Sorry, mike, but I'm not inclined to buy your explanation.I think you worded your previous statement so you would have an out.This is how I read what you mean: "I didn't call YOU a know it all...I just implied that people who don't hold the same beliefs as I do (like you) are know it alls."

quote:

---

I will admitt that I am completely sure that God exists. But you have to understand - I really am nutty. Evidence for me would be our own existence, yet it is more of a "belief", it's not like I am forcing this topic onto you or science Schraf.

---

Of course you are not forcing anything, but this is a debate board, and I'm responding to your statements.

quote:

---

(aharrgh hargggh...cries and moans - Schraffy hates me, tears role down cheeks. )

---

I could never hate you, silly.

quote:

---

Fair enough, atleast you haven't dismissed the truth altogether.

---

That's the arrogance, right there.You claim to know what The Truth is, based upon only your own faith.

quote:

---

You do realize though, that I have never been a suicide bomber.

---

I never said you were.I said that people WITH doubt DON'T become suicide bombers.I was arguing that not having any doubt in one's religious teaching or whatever makes justifying killing lots of people in the name of one's deity much easier.The siicide bombers had no doubt whatsoever that God wanted them to fly jumbo jets into the WTC and they would go directly to heaven.Not having any doubt about one's religious correctness is very dangerous.

quote:

---

I have belief and no doubt in God, yet surely that doesn't logically make me a suicide bomber.

---

No, but those men had belief and no doubt in God, and no doubt that they would go directly to heaven if they killed all of those people.All of those thousands of people's lives might have been saved if those men would have had a little doubt about what they believed that god wanted them to do.

quote:

---

So you agree I have good reason to believe then? And my prayers are indeed answered - thanks.

---

No, I didn't say you had a good reason to believe. I am sure you have reasons, but I have no idea if they are good ones or not.Oh, and haven't we already had the discussion about how you know if your prayers are being answered at a rate any different from what chance would predict?

quote:

---

Because so many people come up with such strange things. People in this forum have given me "evolutions answers" to things like religious experiences etc. Saying that the "God" part of the brain is because of evolution. People are snake fascinated with evolution. They ask it questions like it is a god, and make there own answers. If only they would stick to the science of it and not the philosophy, or "why".

---

But mike, there IS evidence that shows that religious experiences can be induced by stimulating certain parts of the brain. That just a fact. Do you expect scientists to just ignore that? If these facts bother you, maybe you might want to examine why.I don't know anyone who asks questions of any science like it was a god. Can you give an example?

quote:

---

Many here, including you, have said how we are just evolved and are another animal, and that seems to imply we are not made in the image of God.

---

Maybe we are made not in the physical image of God, but in the spiritual image of God.I mean, do you think that God looks like a human, complete with a sharp ridge on the inside of His skull and a single opening for air and food that makes Him prone to choking?

quote:

---

Basically, your theory is an obsession to people, they worship the creature because of it, and not the Creator.

---

WTF are you talking about?The theory is an explanation of the facts we observe in nature.Do you think that the theory of a Heliocentric Solar Syastem is an "obsession to the Sun", with scientists "worshipping the Sun because of it, and not the Creator"?

quote:

---

Give God the glory.

---

So, are you dictating that all scientists must bow down to your God and give Him "the glory"?

quote:

---

Also, other things. Apparently "samaritan acts" or giving to charity is now explained as "looking after the genes of humans for our selfish continuation".
Such a teaching makes out that an act of unselfishness is infact selfishness.

---

It is selfish only from our genes' viewpoint.

quote:

---

Many other things make God's words of none-affect. And seek to destroy the truth of the bible.

---

...and you are arrognat to think you know better than others what the "Truth" of the bible is.I already asked this question, but it wasn't answered, so here it is again, because it is still relevant: "Why do you think God has to be limited to what a small group of poor, nomadic humans thought he did and how he did it?"

quote:

---

And look here, there is even a "bible forum" so you can attack my so called "religion". I could go on, but basically you people have got my dander up with your obsessionf for the evolution mind.

---

Do you think that we also have and "obsession" for the idea that the Sun is the center of our solar system?[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 05-01-2004]

---

Critical thinkers and skeptics don't create answers just to manage their anxiety--Karla McLaren

Unseul,re: ...on religious basis, especially in an open society, then yeah there’s a choice. I know I made a choice to be an atheist...I have never been able to actually consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief in a supreme being or to believe that it is possible for me to become a more compassionate person. Since you seem to be saying that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I wonder if you might explain how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another?

OK, sure. This is gonna get a little personal for me in places, so i may just smudge over details if u dont mind .Right when i was 17 i was going through a lot of stress from just about every angle in my life. This got me extremely depressed, so i was becoming a very secular, pessimistic, sarcarstic etc etc person. I decided one particular night, when i did truly have suicidal tendancies that i needed to obviously get something sorted in my head. So basically that night i changed a lot. That was when i lost any belief i had, i thought about things long and hard, and decided that there was no god no afterlife etc etc. Now dont get me wrong i didnt start thinking i hate god for putting me in this position etc, i just decided that there was no god for a multitude of reasons. And since then i have learnt more and more things that explain to me many little things that just make this belief stronger for me. I afraid i cannot recall precisely what i was feeling etc etc. But my beliefs in god were not the only things to change. I also decided that i wanted to be more laidback chilled out etc, and start enjoying life. Perhaps some people may call me a little crazy, when i hear people arguing, or if they are arguing (i mean shouting etc) at me, i will just start laughin, because i realise now how pointless it all is most the time. You can change your beliefs and outlooks, beliefs i reckon change pretty much overnight, and then start solidifying, outlooks u have to work on, but i cant say ive looked back since. You can change the person you are, if u want to, and if you want to be more compassionate etc etc, u just have to work at it.Damn i've started sounding all preachy Sorry if thats not quite what u wanted but its about as good as i can give, please ask more questions on the specifics and in the most part ill be glad to answer them.Unseul

---

Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life....

I would like to discuss one small part of what you said. I think that is a bad example because it seems to imply that there was a Religious Motive for what the 9-11 folk did.Often, the people that you are speaking of, and Terrorists in general, are working from a basis other than religion.True, they have a strongly held belief that they are right and that their actions are right, but it can be any strongly held belief.If there was a miracle and suddenly, at dawn tomorrow, every Jew in Israel awoke to find that they had converted to Islam, the suicide bombing in Palestine would still go on.The mass murders in Cambodia, Russia, Nigeria, Mosambique, Ethiopia and many, many other instances are not because of religion.But suicide bombings or other horrific acts can and are committed by people without strongly held beliefs. There are those that kill for fun, because someone got in their face or for money.Simplistically relating the strength of ones religious beliefs to anything as horrific as terrorism is simply unsupportable.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion