SIN

Ok this one is a response to Message 12.Yea I guess I didn't explain my reasoning too good. I'll give an anology that might help. You look through a window and you see a man with hair. He's holding a sign that says, "If you walk into this room and you're bald you will grow hair." You could assume that it works because the man has hair. Out of faith you walk into the room and you grow hair. Now that your hair is there you have every reason to believe that walking into the room makes your hair grow. Just to make sure, you try it the next year and any lost hair grows back. Before your hair had grown back you had no sure reason to believe that it would grow back, but now that you've taken a step of faith you have more reasons.It all depends on how you define "god". If god,to you, is a supernatural being that can control things that we cannot, or if its a being that we can worship and depend on then there is no evidence. I believe that "god" is a term for a supernatural creator whom we depend on. Even if you dont believe a "god" is a creator then there must be another name for someone who made the universe. I believe there is only one God because in order for something so vast and advanced to be created then there must be perfect unity. Jehovah (God of Christianity) is a God with three distinct parts acting in such perfect unity that they are one. I dont believe in polytheistic religeons because I believe that "god" means creator and that this universe could not have been created under many gods who all probably would have wanted to be the most powerful. I don't believe in other monotheistic religeons because Jehovah answers all my questions and the way the world is backs up what He says. I have studied other religeons and unanswerable questions come up.I believe that God made this world with inumerable possibilities of how it could turn out. He made this world for His joy, therefore He made it with the allowance of confusion. The Bible discribes how Lucifer became jealous of God and rebelled. God cursed him and sent him to earth. On earth Lucifer (Satan) used deception and made man sin. Because man knew better, God cursed the land and cut off His fellowship with man. Satan continued to decieve and destroy but God did not allow him to touch our souls. Being the merciful God that He is, He allowed for redemption and offered fellowship if man admitted his reliance on God.God allows bad things to happen so that we can be drawn to Him. If He made life easy still after man sinned we would never admit our reliance on Him. The reason God doesn't simply make us good again is because He made rules when He made the earth and that would be breaking the rules. God offers a simply plan to come back into fellowship with Him. We are still on this earth because God wants to know if we're loyal to Him or Lucifer. Since I believe in God I have come to know who He is and why He does the things He does. Also as I realize my reliance on Him I want to serve Him more. What do you serve?

This is in response to message 14You said "I still have evidence that matter exists." I agree with you completely but, that matter had to have come from somewhere even if it did expand.Yes many people do search for God and religeon but don't fin it. I don't know why they dont because I don't know their motives. Maybe they don't know what they're looking for?Excuse me for saying perfect, they aren't, but if it weren't for degeneration and immorality then the systems would be perfect I believe. The cause of degeneration is explained in Genesis. I believe that if you analyze the systems but take out degeneration and immoral behavior then I believe they would be perfect.I believe that if I lied to myself to be happy it would turn up eventually. That's partly why I started to get involved in these debates because it could be revealed to me that I've misinterpretted something. So far this hasn't happened but since I'm carnal I could easily twist the words of the Bible into something different then it really means so that it would please my flesh. Although I am adamant on the fact that there's one God, the Bible is true if I interpret it the way it's supposed to, that Jesus is my Lord, and that I believe in Him. God says I will never understand everything so I am open to things that don't directly contradict God.

I just have a little to add for message 15I invite you to study the Theism of Christianity. Put it to the test. Theism is the only way to explain origin, behavior, our desires, why we're always searching for peace, why we have discernment, love, and why we feel better when we do nice things to people. I personally couldn't live if I thought I were simply material. Don't you feel at all you have more than yourself to serve or that there is more to you than this body? I don't have the remedy for sorrow though: God does.

Right, but what you're talking about is science - i.e. the process of testing claims - not faith. I have faith that testing claims will reveal if they are supported or not. That's why I would walk into the room - to test the claim. That's not faith in hair regorth but rather faith that the truth will be revealed.Faith in an active, redemptive god requires accepting some statements that cannot be tested, and accepting some statements that have been tested and proven false. That's a lot different than your analogy. I have studied your religion and an equal number of unanswerable questions come up. Some of them can be found on this forum. You believe Lucifer lives somewhere on earth?It's fine if you meant it metaphorically. But if you want me to believe in a literally true bible, then you can't present metaphors as something to be taken literally. Saying these kinds of obviously false statements don't make a position of biblical literalism look attractive. I serve all humanity, insomuch as I am willing and able. But I do look to my own needs - if not first, then second or third - because I know that no big god in the sky is going to do that for me.

Actually, if you didn't know, matter comes out of empty space all the time. Not much - and it doesn't generally stick around - but it does. Also, sufficient levels of energy - kinetic, heat, any kind - will turn into matter.Matter's just another state of energy. Where did the energy come from? The initial energy of the big bang. Where did the big bang come from? That question may not even have a meaning, as causality as we know it is not likely to extend beyond the beginning of linear time.

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I invite you to study the Theism of Christianity.

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Yeah, I have done so. And as metaphor, there's some nice aspects to it. As literal fact, even down to details like "there is a God", it doesn't hold up for me.

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Theism is the only way to explain origin, behavior, our desires, why we're always searching for peace, why we have discernment, love, and why we feel better when we do nice things to people. I personally couldn't live if I thought I were simply material.

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I invite you to study a little brain chemistry. There's another way for you.Regardless, you're assuming that there even has to be a reason for all these things. Why? A little seratonin boost, and we feel happy and loving. Why does it even need an explanation beyond that?Mind you, I don't see this as a depressing thing. I don't really see a difference between a world where God put us here, or we just grew here. Either way we're here, and might as well make the most of it while we can.

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Don't you feel at all you have more than yourself to serve

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Yes, I do. Why is that dependent on God?

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or that there is more to you than this body?

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'Fraid not. Mind, soul, body... no real difference to me. The first two are just increasingly abstract ways of describing what goes on in the third.------------------
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Dan Carroll

Why? Ignoring for a moment the Casimir Effect, why does matter have to come from somewhere else? Why don't you apply this same reasoning to your God...who or what created your God? You can believe anything you want, but we don't have to accept what you say if you don't provide any evidence. That is where your problem lies, the evidence doens't point to a loving God. Except that you already stated that you are done searching. I take this to mean that you mind is made up and that nothing we say will convince you otherwise. If you are not done it means that you are willing to consider the possability that you might be wrong. Are you willing to do that?------------------
He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife.
- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy

In response to the last statement of message 19:Generally when you serve you serve something that could use your service. I have no scientific challenge towards your doctrine of service but I have experienced myself that by serving God He provides for me. I still have to do things, He doesnt pamper me, but when there is a need, I pray for it, and if God thinks I should have it He provides. Again I'm saying this from experience not scientific record. There's nothing wrong with helping people, I think its right, but I would rather give my full service to something that can always provide for me even if I can't prove it does. If you don't think God can always provide then read the biography of a missionary.

I have. Why don't you pick up a newspaper and read about the hundreds that starve to death every day?Maybe God (if he exists) CAN provide, but it's obvious to most people that he DOESN'T provide - certainly not in a way that's fair.

This is a response to message 20 and 21.20-Even if matter can form from energy or a "big bang" those need origins also. As you go farther down the line of origins, the only answer could be intervention from another realm. Since God is not matter then He could have always been. So far the only realm we know of that needs an origin/creator is the physical realm. The only explanation, that I can think of, for creation is intervention from something that was not bound by our laws and was in a different realm that we can't comprehend.21- Ok, so you believe that there’s only a physical part of you. Therefore, if you believe that, then the best thing to do with life is to be a hedonist. Assuming that you're an evolutionist because you don't believe in God, then I would like to ask how this promotes evolution. If organisms are constantly becoming more advanced and successful, and the most successful organisms, for what they have, are the ones that work in unity, wouldn't you think that humans should be progressing to unity if we're the most sophisticated? By serving yourself and pleasing yourself you degrade society, you have nothing to contribute, you go against the laws of your own belief (if you believe evolution) by digressing. The greatest progress is made by those you don’t waste their time living for pleasure. I wouldn't say you only live for yourself though because by participating in this we make progress.

Do they? If matter can arise from nothing, who's to say that universes can't as well? In fact the idea that something can't come from nothing is just your assumption. I say that the universe exists simply because it's not possible for the universe not to exist. Prove me wrong. That doesn't follow. Obviously humans gather in communities. We feel that to be important. Why ignore that programming?Anyway, simply following this to its logical conclusion shows how mistaken it is. If everyone is a hedonist - acts as selfishly as possible - then nothing constructive gets done and everyone suffers. Therefore, co-operation is the best thing for everyone. This is simple game theory - it's math. In point of fact, I was a proponent of evolution before I stopped believing in god. They don't really have anything to do with each other. Maybe you're not aware of what you're arguing - you've essentially proved why one can be a materialist and still co-operate with his or her neighbors: It's better for everybody. I didn't need god to tell me that. Just some math.

Response to 22Here's an example of what it might be like without sin. In order for it to make since you have to believe other things but it at least gives a slight example. In the Bible it talks about a canopy of water over the earth. There was radiation and degeneration at the time but things were better than they are now. If there were a canopy of water over the earth then radiation would be blocked much better. Air pressure would be greater so dinosaur's circulatory systems would operate better. it wouldn't rain so there wasn't as much erosion and the dew from such a moist atmosphere would provide water. I don’t believe this story was made up by man to promote a perfect world before degeneration because people didn't know what help a canopy would be back then (probably). Remember, this wasn't a perfect world right before the canopy fell, which I believe happened in a flood, but it was better. So if you take more instances like this then going backwards you end up in a perfect world. The only other instance I can think of is God cursing the land with imperfection. I'm not providing any proof but it's something to think about.I only search for something if I need something. I'm done searching for a source for my questions. Yes, this makes me less open to other ideas but just because I'm done searching doesn’t mean I can't find things.

Yes, humans cooperate naturally. Cooperation can be done for completely selfish purposes though. Cooperation for ones own good has the same characteristics as doing something for the good of mankind, but if someone doesn’t have anything to live for, excluding himself, then he's going to do whatever is for his advantage. A hedonist will do things in secret that hurt others for his own selfish benefit. He does them in secret because he knows he'll be punished by those he hurt. If he's not found out then it looks like he's a cooperative person who benefits the community. The people in that community will accept him, if he's not found out; because it benefits them even though essential he's their demise. This is what can happen if people don't have something to serve but themselves.

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Ok, so you believe that there’s only a physical part of you. Therefore, if you believe that, then the best thing to do with life is to be a hedonist.

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Slow down there, G'sC. You skipped a step or two. Namely, the part where you connect believing there's only a physical part of you to being a hedonist.Read up a little on Atheistic Existentialism. The absence of a God does not take responsibility off humanity; it does exactly the opposite. Without a God, we are hyper-responsible for acting morally toward one another, because no one's going to clean up our mess for us after we die.We all still live on the same planet. We all have to deal with one another. If you want others to be good to you, you have to start by being good to others.

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Assuming that you're an evolutionist because you don't believe in God

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I believe evolution happens because the facts seem to support it, and at present date it's the most likely idea presented to me. God has nothing to do with it one way or the other. Plenty of people believe in God and think the ToE is true.

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If organisms are constantly becoming more advanced and successful, and the most successful organisms, for what they have, are the ones that work in unity, wouldn't you think that humans should be progressing to unity if we're the most sophisticated? By serving yourself and pleasing yourself you degrade society, you have nothing to contribute, you go against the laws of your own belief (if you believe evolution) by digressing.

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One: This kind of falls apart since I'm not a hedonist.Two: And? You seem to be under the impression (and correct me if I'm wrong) that evolution is some sort of ethos. It has nothing to do with morality, or with denegrating any laws.If a species advances, things get better. If a species can't advance, it fails. C'est la vie.Now don't get me wrong. I enjoy a good drink now and then, or a good romp with my girlfriend. There is room in life for both pleasing the self, and helping others.------------------
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Dan Carroll

I didn’t say there was a direct link between hedonism and saying that you're just physical but that it's merely a reasonable and probable resultant.If you don't believe in a God then who sets the laws of morality? Who says you're responsibly? After all you believe there’s no higher authority to tell you these things, no? If there's no after life and if you don't have any obligations to a higher authority why should you care to leave the place neat when your personal chunk of matter ceases to operate as we think it should. If you don't have a soul then really when the evolved matter know as "you" "dies" nothing has really died or been eradicated it has just lost its unity. If you don’t believe in a higher calling then what makes you feel obligated to help the next man on the line have a pleasing life? I think that humans have this instinct because they are told by their conscience (also known as the Holy Spirit) to do what is moral and just even though there is no real reason here on earth to do so. Why does someone feel guilty if they tell a lie that no one will know? And what's guilt?You're right, evolution has no ties to morality but it does have laws, at least what I've studied of it. Things are supposed to be evolving into better things. I guess it's all what form of evolution you believe.