SIN

Well, I've been both Catholic and Protestant, so I guess I got some wires crossed. I guess my Protestant church never specifically denied "original sin". I dunno what's up with that.

Well, sure there is. If you like playing Monopoly (personally I don't), then you'll do what it takes to keep people playing with you. If you don't play by the rules, they take their game and go home.The rules are enforced by the group as a whole. For whatever reason, humans generate moral codes and rules when you put us into groups. (I'm sure it's a genetic behavior, as it confers a HUGE survival advantage to organize in this way.)If you don't follow the rules of society, society kicks you out (into jail or worse). Sure, people cheat when they can get away with it. But if you cheat all the time eventually you get caught, so we're all the decendants of people who were able to internalize moral codes.As for the end of the game in Monopoly, I imagine it's a lot like go. Experienced players recognize when the outcome of the game can no longer be changed. (I don't like go, either.)Despite the competitive nature of games, there's co-operation going on to ensure that the game continues. This paradox is a lot like life.

I don't know much about about genetics but I've heard of breeds of dogs with a defective hip that will go out of place if hit. this dog was a variation of another breed (obviously) but that breed didn't have the problem. I'm sure there are others such as flies with no wings and albino creatures.

Yes, I suppose you're correct but in life I believe things are a bit different when it comes to authorities, there are more levels and I believe there's a perfect supreme authority which can't be understood in an anology to monopoly.

I don't find the argument from ineffability ("You're too small to understand an infinite God") very compelling. You can justify belief in any ridiculous thing with that argument.

Yeah, albino creatures....
Which will survive better on Ellesmere Island in the Canadian Arctic, a grey rabbit or a white one? Which will sneak up on more seals, a brown bear or a snow-white one?

God's Child respods to crashfrog:

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True man can set rules but the rules of this nation were by God.

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Assuming you're talking about the United States, they most certainly were NOTDoes the First Amendment mean nothing to you? Does the Constitution mean nothing to you? In all the Constitution, religion is mentioned only twice and in both cases, it is to specifically remove religion from government.

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The founders of our land prayed and used the Bible to set up laws.

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No, they did NOT. Benjamin Franklin tried to get the Constitutional Conventions opened with a prayer and he was soundly defeated. The founders of this nation were adamant about keeping religion out of government.

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Most of the most ridiculous court orders are made when they use mans ruling rather than the ones set up originally.

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What does "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States" mean to you?What does "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" mean to you?You are simply in error. The US is not a Christian nation. President John Adams even signed a treaty directly stating that, the Treaty of Tripoli, "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion...."

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The conscience we go by is not just what we've been told, it's what we believe.

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But what you believe is influenced by what you've been told.You probably believe that polygamy is a bad thing. Do you think you'd agree with that if you were born a few thousand years ago in the Middle East?

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Our conscience can be seared but before it is I think we all have a universal moral code.

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And the thought that this is an evolved trait of our brains is anathema to you?

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Sure not every evolutionist is going to believe that things are always getting better

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No, you've got it all wrong. It isn't that "not every evolutionist is going to believe that things are always getting better." It's that there is nothing in evolutionary theory that says that an organism ever gets "better." The concept of "better" cannot be described until the mutation happens and gets run through the selection gauntlet to see if the new morphology is of any use.Tell us, which is the "better" morphology: A long, tall frame that doesn't acquire body fat and sheds heat quickly or a short, squat frame that accumulates body fat and retains heat.Don't you think that depends on the environment in which you find yourself?And finally, evolution is not something you "believe."Tell us, do you "believe" in gravity?

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or changed to adapt to their surroundings

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Actually, every person who understands evolution must agree to this conclusion for that is the result of evolution: Adaptation to the environment.

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but according to the evolutionary tree I don't see any species falling to a lower branch.

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I don't think you understand what evolution is.

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I don’t think that if an animal degraded it would die out either because the species before them didn't die out did they?

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Huh? There's no such thing as extinction? You do realize that over 90% of all species that have ever lived are extinct, yes?

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If you believe a species can go up couldn't it go down?

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Of course it can. Extinction happens. The more-adapted species will crowd it out.

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It's more likely for a negative change to happen.

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You're forgetting about selection. It doesn't matter how many deleterious mutations come along. They get selected against leaving only the neutral and beneficial mutations to reproduce and create the next generation.And by the way, most mutations are neutral.

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The gene pool is getting worse and worse

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Says who? As a species, humans are taking over the planet. There's more than six billion of us. How could that be if the "gene pool is getting worse and worse"?

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If you believe uniformitarity, and since we're getting worse genetically, then wouldn't all species have gotten worse genetically?

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There are so many errors in this statement, it's hard to know where to begin.I don't know any scientist who "believes in uniformitarity." First, nothing in science is a "belief." Second, uniformitarianism is hardly a mainstream model for evolutionary behaviour. Third, the genetics of species are robust.Every single thing you stated was wrong. I don't think you know much about the biology you're critiquing.You're completely forgetting about selection. No matter how many "bad" mutations come along, they get selected against leaving only the neutral and "good" mutations.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

God's Child responds to me:

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Also in Monopoly there's no governing authority.

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Yes, there is! It's all of us playing the game.Do you really think that if you come to my house to play Monopoly with me and you cheat you're not going to get kicked out?Again, I don't recall the last time god arrested anybody, put him on trial, convicted him, and sentenced him to jail. That all seems to be carried out by humans. So it would seem that humans are the governing authority.

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Why in good reason would God let himself be elected to a position set by man?

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Because humans, being descended from Adam and Eve who ate from the Tree of Knowledge and therefore are cognizant of what good and evil are, are capable of sitting in judgement on the acts of god and can tell when god does good and evil.

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God's way of dealing with people is far more advanced than confinement and besides God works through people usually.

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Irrelevant. You asked about who's in charge if there is no god. The answer to that is you and me. We're in charge together. We as a society come to an agreement on how we as a society should interact and we as a society enforce those rules upon those members of the society that cannot get along with society.

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Yes, it makes sense to do good to those who could help you.

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And that's all that you need. If it is of benefit to everybody to be nice to people, then it would behoove a society to set that as a standard and enforce it among the members of society.I'm nice to you because then you'll be nice to me. If I'm mean to you, you'll be mean to me and that's not nice.

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If I didn't believe in an afterlife and consequence after life then I'd make a mad dash for money when I'm young and slowly live my life away in pleasure not at the mercy of anyone.

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And what makes you think you'll succeed when you're pissing everybody off? You seem to forget that you're living among a very large number of people and we won't let you get away with it.And that's a very low opinion you have of yourself. You basically just said if it wasn't because god has a gun pointed to your head, you'd be a real jerk. Even though you know that you'd do better to be nice to others and encourage them to be nice to you so that everyone benefits, you'd ignore all that to "make a mad dash."Are you really that incapable of following logic?

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What's your incentive for leaving the place nice when you're dead?

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Because I'm a link in a chain. The only reason that our current society is functioning the way it is is because the previous generation was kind enough to keep it up. Therefore, to keep the functioning society going it is imperative that I hold up my end. If I want my children to enjoy the benefits of a coopertive society, then I have to show them how it works.

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If you were just purely selfish, no conscience at all, wouldn't you completely steal everything away from those weaker than you if those in authority of you didn't mind?

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Only if I had no sense of self-preservation. What makes you think that you can get away with it? And if I manage to convince the rest of society that "stealing everything away from those weaker than yourself" is a good way to behave, what is to keep those stronger than I from taking my stuff? There is always somebody stronger than you. And since I wouldn't want that to happen to me, I conclude that I shouldn't do it to others. It is much more beneficial to my own self interests to be nice to others so that they'll be nice to me.Think about it. Which requires more effort: Being kind or being paranoid?

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This country has rules (based on the Bible)

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Incorrect. This country is not based on any religion.

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preventing that so if you were completely living for self then you would go somewhere where you could take from the weak and have no one stronger than you steal from you. I'm sure there are places where this could happen.

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But those rules were created by humans. They are carried out by humans. They are maintained by humans. They are adapted by humans.

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You said that if everybody is nice to each other then everybody wins. What would you mean by win?

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Having a good life. That "mad dash for the money" you talked about? You're more likely to get it if you get help from other people and you're more likely to get that help if you give help.Of course, that's only a material concern. There are interpersonal relationships, too. If you're a jerk, you won't be very popular and you'll find yourself alone. But if you're magnanimous and friendly, you're much more likely to find love and companionship.Life is not a zero-sum game.

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I do believe that everyone has the Holy Spirit but it leaves after it is ignored a certain amount of times.

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You mean god gives up? Why would an eternal being ever give up on a temporal being?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Coragyps writes:

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Yeah, albino creatures....
Which will survive better on Ellesmere Island in the Canadian Arctic, a grey rabbit or a white one? Which will sneak up on more seals, a brown bear or a snow-white one?

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Um, Coragyps? You do know that there is a difference between being white and being albino, yes? A white organism actually produces pigments...they just happen to be white. An albino organism doesn't produce pigment and thus the proteins are left uncolored, which is often white.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Believe what you want but where is the evidence?BTW, you haven't replied to my last post (message #33) of this thread.------------------
He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife.
- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy

This is responding to 52-53I guess my 7th grade teacher taught me wrong about the founding of our government. I was always taught that most of our founding fathers were devote Christians. I know some of them were though because "in God we trust" is used often in government property. I do believe that State and Church we not mixed to keep the State out of the Church because of what happened in England back in the day. People will abuse their judgmental power by saying it's "under God" that's why I believe they had to say that the nation wasn't at all a theocracy.In the evolutionary tree I don't see a whole new species existing with only negative changes from the original species. If the evolutionary tree didn't only progress then wouldn't we see just as many negative branches as positive? Maybe I'm misinterpreting the tree (probably am) but it seems to me that animals only evolve into something greater. For instance if a society of humans evolved into something equal to apes then they wouldn't become extinct because apes survive. This is why I believe that the phrase that "things only progress" (on a large scale) can be considered a stereotypical evolutionary doctrine. This is something that doesn't make sense (if I'm interpreting it correct) because obviously surviving organisms wouldn't have just had greater and greater, a weaker organism could survive.Yes, I believe in extinction but I believe in a catastrophe accounting for most of the extinction.I think that the gene pool is getting worse very slowly. As mutations occur from radiation then the genes get passed on and mixed. When two people have a child, that child can get the mutations of both parents.Sure good mutations tend to survive better, but negative mutations do not always get eliminated. So far in humans more recorded history I've only seen negative mutations survive. For instance genetic tumors are becoming more abundant because every time a family with this condition has more than 2 kids the condition is being spread. Show me something in humans recorded history that promotes your idea of only good characteristics surviving (besides the geologic column because it's hypothetical).As for the monopoly thing read message 47.You're misinterpreting scripture by saying Adam and Eve now know when God does good and evil. They ate the fruit and realized what was evil but they were deceived by Satan. Satan has been deceiving ever since he convinced them to eat the fruit. Sure humans now are able of being aware what's good and evil but it doesn't mean they're perfect in judgment and able to judge God. They can certainly interpret something as God doing something bad, but it's just a work of Satan. I cannot prove to you that it's a work of Satan, but you can't prove to me that something bad happening is a mistake God made. God allowed for free will therefore Satan's rebellion was not God's mistake.We're in charge of our will. The way we made society dictate us was our will. This doesn't mean God isn't in charge though. God's focus isn't "make sure everyone is put in a jail for stealing". His focus isn't "punish everyone after they've sinned", it's "get them to ask for forgiveness so the sin isn't there". He doesn't arrest people because there are better ways of bringing someone to forgiveness, it's just arresting someone is the best thing we could think of for our society.Being nice to someone so they'll be nice to you isn't a very stable though. You need more motive than that to have a stable society.You said- "But those rules were created by humans. They are carried out by humans. They are maintained by humans. They are adapted by humans."
Before I respond: what rules are referring to?Ok, so your opinion on winning is as much joy for yourself. By serving yourself you're not helping leave the world a nice place as you said you wanted to earlier. If younger people take example of you then they'll be living in the same world as your children and the people who took example of you will subtly take away from them as much as they can as long as they aren't caught. Are you thinking about how you leave the world when you're serving yourself?God does not give up but He does stop taking initiative to tell you something is wrong if you refuse to learn. God hasn't given up; He's just leaving it up to you more to come to Him because He already gave you several chances.

After I scanned the articles here's the reply to #33In the begining of your message what do you mean by- "It talks about insects having four legs as well, but lets see where this goes." I'm assuming you're refering to the Bible talking about 4 legged insects. I don't think I've ever read a verse saying there were 4 legged insects. Anyways when the Bible was written there were no classifications like "insects don't have four legs".In the Bible it doesn't say all the rain came from the sky. It says it came from the "fountains of the deep" and the sky. Therefore, whatever amount that a canopy could hold came down and the ground water made the difference. Also most creationists believe that Mt. Everest was formed sometime after the flood and that Mt.Ararat might have risen after the flood. This is based on some tectonics theories. I'm not a scientist by I believe that a canopy could've existed. Not all the water in the flood had to have come from a canopy.

A lot of that - all of it? - was added in the 1950's to make America different from the so-called "godless" communists. Prior to that god is not usually credited as taking part in our government. The reason that cancer rates are going up is because people aren't dying from colds or sword wounds anymore; they're living long enough for the cancer to get them. If you lived long enough and weren't affected by anything else, cancer would probably be what kills you. Satan isn't in Genesis 1 or 2. Only a serpent. And as I pointed out somewhere, the serpent told the truth. God was the one who didn't tell the truth - or at least, things didn't turn out the way he/she said they would. I won't say that makes him a liar, just somebody who changes his mind.Who's misinterpreting scripture? I'm just reading what's there. Says you. Reiterative game theory says otherwise. Studies of social animals say otherwise. The vast majority of human civilizations that don't believe in your god and therefore have no reason to follow his rules say otherwise. I gave god a bunch of chances to actually provide evidence that he/she exists. No evidence, no existence, no belief. If god exists the ball's in his/her corner on this one.P.s. Sorry to keep using "he" to refer to god, despite being involved in a thread that says this is not entirely appropriate - it's a bad habit.

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God wants us to believe something that is hard to believe according to what theories of reasoning men have come up with. Therefore believeing something that isnt scientifically proven shows true faith. God wants our faith.

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So, in other words, god doesn't want us to use our reason and intelligence and logic, despite our having these big brains and high intelligence.He would rather we stop using our brains to question and figure things out (which is how God made us according to many) and just believe.Is this what you are proposing that God wants for us?

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Also if you dont believe in God I would like to ask why. If you answer:God wouldn't let bad things happen, then how do you know Him well enough to say that statement if He doesnt exsist.

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I am an Agnostic; I don't know if God exists or not, because I have no evidence for God's existence. This doesn't mean God or the supernatural of any stripe can't or doesn't exist. It just means I don't see any reason to believe.

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If you look deep enough into science and philosofy he will realize a Creator must have made it all.Where could matter come from?

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Just look at all the perfect systems that we don't understand.

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You are making a common logical mistake here called "Argument from Ignorance.You are essentially saying that because we do not understand something, God must have been responsible.The ancients believed that Apollo drove the Sun around the earth in his firey chariot. They did not understand that the sun was a star and they didn't understand planetary motion. So, they invented a god to explain what they didn't understand.You are doing exactly the same thing when you look at tough questions such as, "where did matter come from?" and say, "Goddidit".We may never figure out where matter came from. That still doesn't mean that God exists, much less that the particular God of your Christian denomination exists.Put another way, even if the creation of matter was a supernatural event, how can you assign this first cause to your particular Christian god and not to another god, or super-powerful space aliens, or the Great Galactic Goat, etc?

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I am done searching for the answers to life. I searched deeply into all I knew about the world and realized that Someone was showing Himself to me through what He made. i believe everyone can search and understand and I encourage you to try to think of deeper meanings to the things of this world.

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But what if you're wrong? What about all those millions of other people in the world who do not believe as you do, but hold just as strong convictions about the truth of their belief as you do?How can you know if you are right and they are wrong? All any of you have is your internal convictions.There are many people who strongly believe that they have been abducted by aliens. They have exactly the same evidence as you do. Should I believe them? Why or why not?[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 05-11-2003]