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Author Topic:   Spiritual Warfare Fight Thread...
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 31 of 101 (90320)
03-04-2004 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Rand Al'Thor
03-03-2004 10:25 PM


But it's even funnier than that !
God: "Hey! that guy can't see me. Guess I'd better punish him by making it so he can't see me."
I suppose at least that the unmerited punishment is so ineffectual that there is no real injustice - but I always thought that God was supposed to be a bit brighter than that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 03-03-2004 10:25 PM Rand Al'Thor has not replied

  
compmage
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 32 of 101 (90353)
03-04-2004 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
03-03-2004 8:34 AM


Re: I Hope that Jesus understands and approves..
Phatboy writes:
I just want to show them our relationship! Please have mercy on all of us!
Personally, any being who is performing, or has threatened to perform, acts of such a nature that I am willing to beg for mercy (assuming that I can't just stop them), isn't the sort of being I would want to have ANY sort of relationship with. Simply put, if god is soo cruel that people beg for mercy, maybe he isn't the sort of person you should be friends with.

Freedom, morality, and the human dignity of the individual consists precisely in
this; that he does good not because he is forced to do so, but because he freely
conceives it, wants it, and loves it.
- Mikhail Bakunin, God and the State, from The Columbian Dictionary of Quotations

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 03-03-2004 8:34 AM Phat has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 33 of 101 (90358)
03-04-2004 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Cold Foreign Object
03-04-2004 3:12 PM


quote:
God only promises to be a Father if one responds.
Not a very good father, then.
At least, not by any definition of good parenting I have ever heard.
Good parents love their children even if the children act out, hate, disown the parents.
Parental love is not conditional.
quote:
The unconditional love/grace/mercy of God has ONE condition :
LOL! Well, if God's love has even one condition, that kind of precludes it's being UNconditional, doesn't it?
quote:
that it be responded to in a predetermined amount of time known only to God.
So, I don't know, nor do I have any way of knowing, the consequences of my actions, yet I will be punished for not doing the right thing?
More bad parenting.
quote:
God is not a doormat.
Apparently, God is also a lousy, inconsistent, fickle parent which can turn His love for His children off and on at His whim.
Good thing we hold human parents to a higher standard, eh?
quote:
And the post that started this particular exchange is actually incomplete.
The overriding and controlling truth that supercedes all other truth is the truth of the gospel.
Accoding to you, sure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-04-2004 3:12 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-04-2004 9:00 PM nator has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 34 of 101 (90390)
03-04-2004 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by nator
03-04-2004 5:40 PM


Your subjective standard of what defines good parenting is nothing but a lousy excuse for whitewashing the sin of rejecting the Creator, which boils down to not wanting a Boss.
IF God is, then whatever He does is right. Who can challenge Him ?
Now how foolish is your stance of defiance. You hate the thought of being accountable and dealing with Someone who demands that you accept a claim on your life.
Your logic of good parenting transposed upon God says that He must love you always and continuously even if you sneer at Him OR He does not exist.
Where do you get your ideas about God ? What is your source ?
These questions are rhetorical. You get them from this present faithless generation which is more in love with themself than God. The Bible predicted our present culture, as it is the first generation in history to refuse the romance that God offers.
Your criticisms of God are meaningless because they lack any objective integrity. Its your way, all the way, all the time, that a God must pass my self centered litmus test and revolve around me or I won't be bothered.
God demands that YOU revolve around Him. When this happens, He will romance you like a Father, He will come running when He sees you afar off and kill the fatted calf, He will place the gold chain of His Son in your heart, and "ALL that is Mine is thine". But you have to respond, which is so little a requirement.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by nator, posted 03-04-2004 5:40 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by crashfrog, posted 03-04-2004 9:05 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 38 by nator, posted 03-04-2004 10:15 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 35 of 101 (90393)
03-04-2004 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Cold Foreign Object
03-04-2004 9:00 PM


IF God is, then whatever He does is right. Who can challenge Him ?
We can. God says so in Genesis 3:22. We have the same ability to determine right from wrong that he does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-04-2004 9:00 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 36 of 101 (90397)
03-04-2004 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by crashfrog
03-04-2004 9:05 PM


that's called rhetoric, which is the misuse of logic in order to support a belief.
All you have done is to use that which is intended to bring you to Him, (His word) as a vehicle to do that which you are already doing. (rejecting Him)
There is nothing unique in this. People everyday use the Bible to rationalize their own way, which by defintion is not God's way.
Why don't you find a different source to justify your rejection of God.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 37 of 101 (90400)
03-04-2004 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Stephen ben Yeshua
03-04-2004 3:24 PM


"He is a formidable but just enemy"...."restrained only by His hope"
Ben : I really like this description. Very good way to put it !

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-04-2004 3:24 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 38 of 101 (90405)
03-04-2004 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Cold Foreign Object
03-04-2004 9:00 PM


quote:
Your subjective standard of what defines good parenting is nothing but a lousy excuse for whitewashing the sin of rejecting the Creator, which boils down to not wanting a Boss.
I do have a boss. She's a wonderful employer and we have a great, mutually-respectful relationship.
The kind of capricious, fickle, trick-playing, unfair Boss you are describing doesn't seem to be worth my respect.
quote:
IF God is, then whatever He does is right. Who can challenge Him ?
Um, if God said it was OK to murder and rape people, woould you consider it just and moral to do so? I wouldn't, but by your definition of "good", which seems to be "God says X is good", you would think that murder and rape is "good".
quote:
Now how foolish is your stance of defiance. You hate the thought of being accountable
Excuse me!
I am VERY accountable for my actions to myself, my family, my friends, coworkers, and my society. I don't get where you get off having an opinion about my feelings of accountability at all.
quote:
Your logic of good parenting transposed upon God says that He must love you always and continuously even if you sneer at Him OR He does not exist.
Yep. Surely, since God made me and is all-knowing, he made me to be just like I am, and with full knowledge that I would be like I am.
BTW, I actually do not know if God exists or not, although I do not think that it is likely that we could detect of conceive of God anyway.
quote:
Where do you get your ideas about God ? What is your source ?
I was raised a Catholic and attended 14 years of Catechism. They always told us that God loved everyone, even the non-believers, because we were all his children. That was the message of Jesus; that even though he was persecuted and tortured, he still loved all people enough to die for their sins. He loved everyone; even the people who didn't believe he was the messiah, and he died for their souls, too.
quote:
These questions are rhetorical. You get them from this present faithless generation which is more in love with themself than God.
Whoops! Wrong on that one. BTW, I'm hardly going to be in the "current generation". I'm 36.
quote:
The Bible predicted our present culture, as it is the first generation in history to refuse the romance that God offers.
LOL!! I'd love a nickel for every time somebody has said that over the last 2000 years.
quote:
Your criticisms of God are meaningless because they lack any objective integrity.
Does this mean that I hit a nerve?
I mean, you certainly are getting upset. Maybe God is a bad parent, able to turn off his love, but why worship a god of conditional love?
It seems like you are anthromorphising God, only to make him more shallow and vindictive, like a juvenile human.
quote:
Its your way, all the way, all the time, that a God must pass my self centered litmus test and revolve around me or I won't be bothered.
Look, any God which I'm going to consider has to behave more powerfully and less weakly and needily than a neurotic emotional vampire. Why is God so dependent upon me to believe in him? What's with the ego problem?
quote:
God demands that YOU revolve around Him.
Why? HE'S GOD!! I ask again, what's the deal with the ego problem?
If you are going to instill all of these human emotional needs into your God, then I think it's perfectly fair for me to describe Him in the way I have.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-04-2004 9:00 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-04-2004 10:29 PM nator has replied
 Message 43 by Coragyps, posted 03-04-2004 10:58 PM nator has replied
 Message 44 by crashfrog, posted 03-04-2004 11:03 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 39 of 101 (90409)
03-04-2004 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Cold Foreign Object
03-04-2004 9:22 PM


quote:
People everyday use the Bible to rationalize their own way, which by defintion is not God's way.
How do you know that you are not using the Bible to rationalize your own way, while convincing yourself that it is God's way?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-04-2004 9:22 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 40 of 101 (90410)
03-04-2004 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by nator
03-04-2004 10:15 PM


text book atheist rant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by nator, posted 03-04-2004 10:15 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by NosyNed, posted 03-04-2004 10:37 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 46 by nator, posted 03-05-2004 8:34 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 41 of 101 (90411)
03-04-2004 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Cold Foreign Object
03-04-2004 10:29 PM


text book atheist rant.
Yea, because that is the kind of answer that one always gets back. So the question gets asked again and there is no answer again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-04-2004 10:29 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 42 of 101 (90417)
03-04-2004 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by NosyNed
03-04-2004 10:37 PM


common sense isn't

This message is a reply to:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 43 of 101 (90422)
03-04-2004 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by nator
03-04-2004 10:15 PM


I'd love a nickel for every time somebody has said that over the last 2000 years.
Schraf, that much nickel has yet to be mined.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by nator, posted 03-04-2004 10:15 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 44 of 101 (90424)
03-04-2004 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by nator
03-04-2004 10:15 PM


I think that the question - the one the really militant believers never seem to answer - is, why does the relationship they describe having with God seem so dysfunctional compared to true, loving relationships that humans have with each other?
God's like an abusive boyfriend. Who wants to worship that?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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hitchy
Member (Idle past 5118 days)
Posts: 215
From: Southern Maryland via Pittsburgh
Joined: 01-05-2004


Message 45 of 101 (90473)
03-05-2004 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by crashfrog
03-04-2004 11:03 PM


The idea of a personal god...
...fulfills the need for "guidence" that some people think they need in their lives. Others believe in god b/c they were brought up to believe and if they want to remain part of the family or community, they continue to believe or become ostracized. Some believe b/c it is comforting. Some believe b/c it gives them a sense of purpose or power. Others believe b/c it justifies their morality.
I don't believe b/c the "guidence" provided by god is just you finally making up your mind for whatever reason. I also don't believe b/c I think it is a cop-out to say "it is in god's hands now" or "it is god's will". WTF!?! Some things happen b/c of random chance. Other things happen b/c humans influence events around themselves for whatever reason. Anyway, whatever happens can be explained without resorting to "god did it". Sometimes the explanation is not always immediately apparent, but given time, can be found.
Sometimes you just have to say "F--- it" and be yourself no matter what others think. I am not saying to be offensive or anything, but if you are ostracized for being who you are, you probably shouldn't have been there in the first place. You cannot control how others act. You can only control how you react to them. If they have a problem, that's what it is--their problem. I started a story on another thread about a born-again (?) christian I almost married right out of college. Her mother hated me b/c I could not stand by while she spouted out stupid shit all the time. I tried to be respectful, but when you finally obtain a degree in biology and then are told that snakes lost their legs just like it says in the bible or that all Catholics are going to hell (I was raised Catholic and she knew that) or that I needed spiritual guidence b/c I didn't think the way they did, etc. you just lose it. However, for as much abuse I took about not being a BAC, I at least did not comment on how much my girl liked premarital sex (that is still a no-no, right?) or how much money the mother wasted on make-up or on how much slanderous gossip she spread right after we would get out of church or her "throwing stones" at all of us "heathens".
I think that we should spend time trying to improve this world, not preparing ourselves for an afterlife that might or might not exist. Remember, good works don't get you to heaven, so why bother with them? God gets to pick and choose for whatever reason--that sounds fair, right!?!
One more thing, don't tell me I don't believe in god b/c god is making me not believe in him/her/it b/c I have rejected him/her/it. What kind of BS is that?
{added by edit--This is not directed at crashfrog (in case anyone could not tell.)}
[This message has been edited by hitchy, 03-05-2004]

This message is a reply to:
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