A puzzling thing about traditional religion

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But an omniscient God's knowledge is inviolable. God cannot be wrong, thus, that knowledge is equivalent to determining the outcome. Once an omniscient being knows what the action will be that action is locked in tight. It will happen precisely as God has forseen. This is predestination, not free will.

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John can you re word this for me please it makes no sense to me. I can't see your reasoning there at all. thanx I never claimed to be the quickest stick in the bucket------------------
saved by grace

[QUOTE]Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
[B][quote]John can you re word this for me please it makes no sense to me. I can't see your reasoning there at all. thanx I never claimed to be the quickest stick in the bucket[/B][/QUOTE]Let me give you an example from science, at the quantum level things (electrons etc) exsist as probability wave functions, if you observe a particular particle, you collapse the wave function for that particle, saying we have free will is akin to saying our actions are described by a probability wave function, as soon as an observer (lets say your God) knows our future actions the wave function has effectively collapsed and predetermined our actions otherwise the observer can not be said to KNOW.....So its either Gods Omniscience or our free will, one of them needs to be voted off the island (well technically one of them was never on the island but you catch my drift)......

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Originally posted by graedek:

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What does this mean?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by joz:
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
[B][quote]John can you re word this for me please it makes no sense to me. I can't see your reasoning there at all. thanx I never claimed to be the quickest stick in the bucket[/B][/QUOTE]Let me give you an example from science, at the quantum level things (electrons etc) exsist as probability wave functions, if you observe a particular particle, you collapse the wave function for that particle, saying we have free will is akin to saying our actions are described by a probability wave function, as soon as an observer (lets say your God) knows our future actions the wave function has effectively collapsed and predetermined our actions otherwise the observer can not be said to KNOW.....So its either Gods Omniscience or our free will, one of them needs to be voted off the island (well technically one of them was never on the island but you catch my drift)......[/B][/QUOTE]Hey! That's GOOOOOOOD, Joz!!!------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

[QUOTE]Originally posted by John:
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by joz:
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
[B][quote]John can you re word this for me please it makes no sense to me. I can't see your reasoning there at all. thanx I never claimed to be the quickest stick in the bucket[/B][/QUOTE]Let me give you an example from science, at the quantum level things (electrons etc) exsist as probability wave functions, if you observe a particular particle, you collapse the wave function for that particle, saying we have free will is akin to saying our actions are described by a probability wave function, as soon as an observer (lets say your God) knows our future actions the wave function has effectively collapsed and predetermined our actions otherwise the observer can not be said to KNOW.....So its either Gods Omniscience or our free will, one of them needs to be voted off the island (well technically one of them was never on the island but you catch my drift)......[/B][/QUOTE]Hey! That's GOOOOOOOD, Joz!!!
[/B][/QUOTE]glad you understood it John ... but then you're all soooooooo smrt!! [This message has been edited by Chara, 11-25-2002]

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Originally posted by Chara:

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glad you understood it John ... but then you're all soooooooo smrt!!

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hmmmm.. i think i read long ago that as long as you occasionally said that you were welcome here *grin*

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Let me give you an example from science, at the quantum level things (electrons etc) exsist as probability wave functions, if you observe a particular particle, you collapse the wave function for that particle, saying we have free will is akin to saying our actions are described by a probability wave function, as soon as an observer (lets say your God) knows our future actions the wave function has effectively collapsed and predetermined our actions otherwise the observer can not be said to KNOW.....

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So its either Gods Omniscience or our free will, one of them needs to be voted off the island (well technically one of them was never on the island but you catch my drift)......

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Okay first off i better say something ignorant about your little bracket thingy there. Wait i'll hold but it's all i can do not to. Man am i sick of this kind of thing. Quit with the mockery i'm trying to quit this myself but i have a hard time when i read this kind of trash add on.Now the only part i got was the mockery of God. I said something in the flood thread about why would you explain something scientifically to a person without a great scientific knowledge, they wouldn't get it. Thanx for clarifying my post elsewhere but this one particle spins donkeys into a monkey to chicken over pie / quantum meatdonkey=blah blah blah blah.Now if you don't mind John you want to take another go at this cuz the logic is still out to lunch in my mind.. So if you can think of yet another way to word it i'd be much obliged.------------------
saved by grace

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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Okay first off i better say something ignorant about your little bracket thingy there.

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Bracket thingie? Do you mean the part that reads "as soon as an observer (lets say your God)"?hmmm... well, Funkie, we were talking about your God. The reason for the bracket thingie is that the argument depends upon an omniscient observer, but not necessarily your God or any God at all for that matter. It could be Bubba the psychic, so long as Bubba is never ever ever wrong.

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Thanx for clarifying my post elsewhere but this one particle spins donkeys into a monkey to chicken over pie / quantum meatdonkey=blah blah blah blah.

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Its really quite simple. If you don't know what is going to happen it may still happen anyway. Or maybe not.

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Now if you don't mind John you want to take another go at this cuz the logic is still out to lunch in my mind.. So if you can think of yet another way to word it i'd be much obliged.

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Think about your basic conditions.1) God is omniscient-- all-knowing and without error in that knowledge2) We have free will-- the ability to choose between optionsNow think of the mind of God. Did you see the flash of everything that was, is and will be? That is the sum of God's knowledge about our world. Since he has known from the beginning it could just as easily be called a memory. God has had this knowledge from the beginning and God is never wrong-- a condition of omnipotence. In other words, there can be no deviation from this memory, this knowledge in God's head. If there were a deviation then God would have been wrong -- an impossible thing for an omniscient God. Free will implies that we can choose one of the other option. But we can't. We must choose the one God has forseen ( or God is not omniscient, and theologians start jumping out of windows ) This is predestination.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

The bracket comment i made was about the end little smart ass island comment.So you are saying that because i know my cat will eat food he has to eat food?He no longer has an option because i know he's going to eat food.------------------
saved by grace

FMF there was no mockery intended I was just arguing (using an analogy with quantum mechanics) that you can`t have free will and an omniscient observer.....Thats it, no mockery intended, admitedly with the "survivor" reference at the end I deviated from a purely formal phrasing of my argument but even then there was no intention of mockery...

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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
The bracket comment i made was about the end little smart ass island comment.

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So you are saying that because i know my cat will eat food he has to eat food?

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He no longer has an option because i know he's going to eat food.

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It depends, do you claim to be omniscient?

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Originally posted by John:
Hey! That's GOOOOOOOD, Joz!!!

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I know I save it for special occasions, I`m not sure if anyone else has used this before but if they have I`m not aware of it (wouldn`t be that surprised tho I`m not THAT smart). I formulated it almost a year ago in a conversation on these boards with a fella called redstang....I`ve trotted it out a few times since and have yet to recieve a decent answer....

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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
The bracket comment i made was about the end little smart ass island comment.

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So you are saying that because i know my cat will eat food he has to eat food?

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He no longer has an option because i know he's going to eat food.

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No. It doesn't work with you and I because we don't have absolute certainty of anything. God, however, does. The key is the omniscience of God.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

[QUOTE]Originally posted by joz:I`ve trotted it out a few times since and have yet to recieve a decent answer....[/B][/QUOTE]Well, joz you left me in the dust on that one ... suppose you could present it in terms a lowly housewife could understand

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Originally posted by John:

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Originally posted by graedek:

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What does this mean?

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It's the newest philosophy containing the meaning of life .. pretty hard to wrap your mind around hey. ------------------
saved by grace