soul of fundamentalism

I guess that I DO try and frame conversations according to an efficient method and that this "ringleader mentality" irritates some of you. Sorry, its a bad habit. My Mom does the same thing to me and I get irritated with her! Sorry,Chris.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-05-2005 11:56 AM

Okay.Thought that might be where I was failing in my communication.Hamelin was the town that hired the piper to get rid of all the rats. After he got rid of them they refused to pay him his wages, so he piped off all the children and they were never seen again.It's a horrible, frighting story, one of failure, justice and wrathful punishment, just like the tales of Lot and Noah. It's the source for "Paying the piper!"Luke 17 is very similar. Jesus is instructing folk using examples. It doesn't matter whether the examples are real or fictional, it is the message that is important. He is telling the same tale as in the Pied Piper of Hamelin and is not intending that the story of Lot or of Noah are anything more than additional examples.He's saying, "Remember what happened in Hamelin?"This message has been edited by jar, 03-05-2005 12:13 AM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

So are you suggesting that Jesus Himself did not believe in a literal Noah and/or a literal Flood and a literal destruction of Sodom? (Hold up...I'm reading...) OK...I see your point. I am unsure where I stand in regards to word for word literalism as opposed to thought for thought literalism.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-05-2005 11:18 AM

Actually, yes. I don't believe that Jesus believed any of those were real stories.I don't think Jesus assigned any significance more than story or fable to the Garden of Eden, Adam & {St}Eve, Sodom, the Flood, Exodus or most such tales. If Jesus is GOD, surely he would know there was not a world-wide flood and it's not possible to gather all the animals, how the universe was really formed and that they were but folk tales.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

A Christian who believes in Biblical Inerrency would say that Jesus knew that the O.T. was a series of literal events.Remember, though, that there was no Bible in those days. There were scrolls of the Old Testament writings and of the prophets. How do we know what Jesus thought of word for word literalism? It seems to me, based on this scripture, that Jesus was not so concerned that the Disciples memorized the scrolls as He was that they knew the Father. Notice how Jesus emphasizes knowing Him as opposed to knowing scripture(scrolls).So guys, this IS intriguing. What do you think, Chris?Am I on the same page with what you were talking about?This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-05-2005 12:03 AM

Although I DO believe that there was a literal Fall and a literal allowance of Original Sin and literal separation from God foreknown and correctable ONLY through acceptance of and trust in Jesus Christ. Surely He knew this. I think that a parable, by definition, is never fictional in the sense of being made up. Parables are real examples of human imperfection interacting with God.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-05-2005 11:41 AM

I think we are wandering too far afield with that. Maybe in another thread.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Well, we are talking about fundamentals, are we not? Plus I added to that last thread... Yeah you are right. You are smart for your age...and I sometimes overintellectualize things...Jar knows! This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-05-2005 12:01 AM

If you owed me money and you said "remember in the days of the piper when he took all the children away, well I will pay you back eventually because I don't want something terrible like that to happen to me." I wouldn't believe you would pay me back because that never happened.So when Jesus said: "on the day when Lot left Sodom fire and brimstone rained from the sky to destroy them all. So it will be when the sun of man is revealed"Why should we believe him?And if what you say is true why would Jesus exploit the people by using a story that everyone thought was true and putting fear in them that it will happen again when it never really happened? Is Jesus dishonest?

If I said "I'll pay you back because honesty is the best policy.", would you believe me? Or are you simply going to doubt anything I say? What is it he wants us to believe? What was it that Jesus wanted people to think? Why do you think people considered any of those stories true? Jesus is a teacher using parable, analogy and examples. It's no more dishonest using the myth of the flood or the GOE than using the story of the Good Samaritan.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Jesus declared, in effect, that His kingdom was NOT of this world. He never taught His disciples how to protest Roman oppression.

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Actually, it has always been pretty clear to me that Jesus was portrayed as talking about a literal kingdom on earth, in at least the earlier Gospels.He speaks of people listening to him during a sermon being alive when he returned, for one thing.The Gospel of John, for example, is very different from the other three Gospels in that it portrays the "kingdom" as a spiritual one, while the earlier ones clearly considered Jesus an actual leader which would come back from the dead to lead his people to a military victory over their oppressors.

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Matthew 5:17-18 "Think not that I came to abolish the law, or the prophets: I came not to abolish, but to fulfil. Amen I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or smallest part of a letter.'

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he didn't come to challenge the laws

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John
35"If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?

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The demand for a sign

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then some of the scribes and pharisees said to him "Teacher, we wish to see a sign from you". He said to them in reply, "an evil and unfaithful generation seeks a sign, but no sign will be given if except of Jonah the prophet. Just as Jonah was in the belly of a whale for 3 days and 3 nights, so will the son of man be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. At the judgement, the men of Nineveh will arise with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and there is something greater than Jonah here. At the judgement of the queen of the south will arise with this generation and condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and there is something greater than Solomon here.

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I could ask you a quesion like Jesus is greater than fictional characters? But it would be easier to just tell you that you are dishonestly interpreting Jesus' words to fit your world view, so your faith is safe, that nothing could ever put it into question, touch it. What's the point of having faith if you form your belief of God so that you don't need it. You have reached a certain stepping stone that most people at this board will never pass, you have the intellectual capacity in that you can see a God, but so you don't have any faith to your faith, a claim of christianity, well it was founded on Abraham, judaism, recorded in the old testament and believed by Christ, now you seem smug interpreting the Jesus' words when at any moment you could say if Jesus' said something you might be looked down upon in society, you can shrug it off and say it was said to explain a point, or the writer wrote that Jesus said that because it was political.

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What is it he wants us to believe?

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THat he will come back with judgement, with punishment. Why should we believe him if that never happened to Sodom, and there is no Sodom or Lot? At the judgement "the men of nineveh won't condemn it, neither will the "queen of the south", because he said that to scare you, they didn't exist. It's like saying I will shoot you but I don't have a clip, but I'm pretending I do have a clip.Or maybe jar you could say these people are being used to symbolize something,of what you said Jesus didn't really mean truthfully of these people in the jewish texts, to be used to show a message that you shouldn't need a sign, in that,Righteous men have faithThis message has been edited by chris porcelain, 03-05-2005 19:59 AM

Sorry Chris, I've read and re-read your last post about a half dozen times and I still can't figure out what you're trying to say.Try breaking it down into simple questions or complete sentences and I'll give it another try.Thanks.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

ok h/o

any better?