soul of fundamentalism

No,not really.Let me try a few questions and see if we can get together.Why do you seem to think I don't have faith?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I wrote in complete sentences, and it's in english, and i addressed all of your points and i have no time to do a q and a so if you can find a translator then that's good.

Well it was interesting watching you guys for a while anyway. While I think you are both talking past each other, I have to say I think you (CP) are being a bit more neglectful in trying to address Jar's points.It seems that at this point you are essentially telling Jar that if he doesn't agree with your interpretation then he is less of a Xian, or at least less faith as a Xian. Is that fair when you were the one raising an issue and he was simply answering? Okay, maybe he starts from a different viewpoint, but that does not automatically make his points less credible.I think it is an interesting question whether Jesus had to have believed they were real stories or fables (myths) which he could build upon. While I get your point (and I think PB's) that it could seem a bit dishonest, I think that comes from a modern vantage point. Back in those times people did not believe as literally in everything that pertained to their Gods. While they believed great and powerful things happened they also recognized and accepted myths and myth telling. Jesus lived in those times, not ours, so why could he not use them like any other religious leader at the time?This was clearly done by early xian writers regarding Jesus. Some of his adventures were obviously taken from other myths at the time, and the xian church continually brought pagan myths into its practices even after it was a powerful entity in its own right. After all, we do know Jesus was not born in December, right?You suggested that Jar was smug for holding a view which is contrary to modern fundie concepts of what Xian tenets are.Yet honestly how do you not see that the rich men paid handsomely by a Roman Emperor, could not have been the smug ones in deciding they could actually edit ALL thought on God, down to a single tome that could be considered the single VOICE of God? I mean it was they who imparted to themselves the capacity that they were guided by God and so inerrant, but when did Jesus ever say that? When did Jesus ever say that there would one day be a single collections of writings that we would all have to follow as the only true literal telling of what God did and said?Perhaps it is a part of my skeptical nature, but it seems to me jar did not advance that he was endowed by God with absolute knowledge, simply because someone was paying him to edit a book. And it seems to me perhaps those compilers were a bit more smug with what they did.Now that I think about it maybe this raises and important point which should be asked. What if the writings had never been compiled at the request of a Roman Emperor? What would Xian "fundamentalists" actually believe? Would the fact that there were many more writings, and more could be added, have created a more fluid and less violent form of Xianity?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)"...don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

well I think things should be taken for what they are worth. I have absolutely no energy right now, i need a nother glass of oprnage juice, i did however talk tro a theologian bout the fgenocide in the bibkle and if jesus literally believed and he said exactly what you said:

quote:

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Back in those times people did not believe as literally in everything that pertained to their Gods. While they believed great and powerful things happened they also recognized and accepted myths and myth telling. Jesus lived in those times, not ours, so why could he not use them like any other religious leader at the time?

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I think if you approach the scripture honestly its puzzling to me because it seems like Jesus did believe it. From taking his words for what theyre worth. i have to go sleep then write some stuff down
peace guy

Hey, Chris. I have read the discussion for the last few posts, and I thought that I would bring up a few points that I have been taught.Remember that all of us are taught somewhat differently, and all of us have our belief based upon different criteria. I WILL say that there is a definite difference between those who believe and those who don't. There are some points about Bible teaching that I have been taught. They are: Just a few things to think about.Let me ask you this, Chris. Do you believe that the Earth is 6000 years old or that it is much older?
Do you believe in a literal spiritual war that exists in the realm that we live in?I bring this all up because I want you to think about WHY you believe the way that you do.I am not judging it as right or wrong, but I want you to ask yourself if you believe because you know in your heart that it is true, or do you believe because someone taught you and it sounds good?Do you believe that indeed NONE are righteous and that it is totally by grace that any of us are going to make it?If so, by what standard are we being judged?More importantly, what standard, if any, can we use to judge each other?Is this our job?This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-07-2005 01:41 AM

You will benefit greatly by learning more about how people in Jesus' time actually lived and what belief meant to them. Truth, especially religious truth, was a bit different than what we understand and pursue as literal or scientific truth.I think you may be suprised to find that much of what I say (regarding Xianity) is understood and accepted by many people who study the Bible. I got much of my understanding from very devout people, even if I ended up in doubt. Well does approaching it honestly mean understanding truthfully what it is an under what conditions it came to be, or that you assume everythin in it must be 100% literally true. It seems to me the latter is less honest.Think of Fables and the mythological tales of ancient Egyptians or Greeks and Romans of that time. While they could invest some amount in believing the stories to be somewhat true, or a reflection of greater truths, the importance (Truth) was not in literal exactness to fact of action but of what did people need to understand about life and how to live it.These people were looking for moral truth and not scientific facts. That is the time that Judaism and Xianity rose to power. That is how they would have talked about things and their followers would have understood them.Indeed if gnostic conceptions of Xianity are true then it is possible that (like kabbalah for judaism) most of what one reads is not really true at all, and actual truth is only learned through intense study of esoteric elements hidden within the superficial tales.It doesn't mean one is less honest to hear a fable and know it is a fable, and yet learn a valuable lesson from it. That wouldn't even mean that Jesus was less if he was a teller of Fables, or was a fable himself (without question some of his followers did pad his resume with myths from other deities at the time).Your religion may become more interesting an deep once you realize it doesn't all have to be literal truth.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)"...don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

My "religion" would not exist were its head found to be a compilation of human wisdom. By definition, Christianity is founded upon the influence of God rather than the musings of man.Be they parables or literal truth, all stories are interactions with the perfect Spirit of God. This is not mere philosophy.

I suppose I should have said it does not necessarily mean that Jesus was less. From a specific beginning perspective there may seem to be a loss. You may be reading into my post more than I was saying. I wasn't saying it was all human wisdom divorced from influence, though that could be a possibility. I was saying that despite being told through fables and myths, the moral truths could still be there and for all I know, came from divine inspiration. When is the love of knowledge mere anything? Understanding fables and their connection to a perfect being would fall under philosophy. Read Plato or most of the Greek philosophers and you will see this plainly.I think you meant to say, whether fable or literal, the source was from a God imparting wisdom, rather than humans alone engaging in sheer random speculation.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)"...don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

Yes, that sums up my view quite concisely! Thanks, holmes!

Convert as many friends as possible to your version of Xianity, it seems to be one I can understand the best.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)"...don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

Speaking of the source of impartation, it all must be taken in the context of the environment as well. I am happy when you agree with me, but also happy when you do not. I NEED your perspective to compare and contrast with my worldview. That is one reason why I never hang out on theological discussion boards.
There is an old Chinese proverb which says that if you want to know what water is, don't ask the fish. The reason is that the fish does not know what any other kind of existence offers because it is submerged in the monotony and single vision of a water-logged existence.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-08-2005 03:06 AM

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Truth is stranger than fiction because we have made fiction to suit ourselves.
-- G.K. ChestersonIt ain't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so.
-- Will Rogers

Beautiful proverb, that is exactly why I love human cultural diversity and do not want it to end. The only people I feel are my true enemies are those who wish to legislate or otherwise coerce their belief system over those of others.We appear to be on a very similar wavelength, even if the beams end at different places.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)"...don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

Can you explain to me how you came to think how the Israelites thought? That is what ive been thinking about

I used to get put into corners by atheists asking me about a good atheist going to hell. I then realized everyone sins. Then I realized its impossible and sinful to judge another person because I'm not God ..I'm just like them, so I don't judge people. It would seem that it isn't 6000 years old but I would'nt say either way because I don't know. I don't think that matters, if you understand that the evidence says its billions. I'm more interested in converting the world to existentialism than christianity.Spellcheck by PBThis message has been edited by AdminPhat, 03-12-2005 11:47 AM

I was sitting down spacing out and the television was playing downstairs and i wasnt hearing it and i was thinking about this guy i said was lieing on christianity forums because he said that jews don't worship the same god as christians do. I said in my head was I wrong and then i heard lines from the tv downstairs and it said "u said i was lieing, that i was wrong when all i was doing was saying the truth." i recognized it was john waaynes voice later. I thought that was divine. That i had that experience, God was talking to me.This message has been edited by chris porcelain, 03-08-2005 13:35 AM