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Author Topic:   Atheism, a dangerous idea?
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 196 of 241 (331439)
07-13-2006 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by ramoss
07-13-2006 8:51 AM


Re: Moral standards
How do you explain those atheists who are ex-christians, and after they left the church, they are much happier, much more intune with themselves, and also are more willing and able to help people through difficulties? I have seen that happen on a number of occations.
There are a number of explanations for that. But I have not experienced that, so I am just guessing. But in guessing I would say that, the church they were in was probably not for them.
I could not go to just any church. I feel so blessed that I finally found one where the people make sense. It took over ten years.
But church, and God are two different things.
Maybe now that they left the church, they are more free to be "Christian", or be closer to how God would perfer to have us live, than if they were in the church. Even if they don't claim to believe. That is why I hold nothing against a single atheist.
I have even argued that there may no such thing as a "true atheist" and everyone is born agnostic. I think some people are even atheist out of anger towards the church, I sense it in a lot of peoples writings here in this forum. It is the churches fault, not God's.
The kingdom of God is right here, in this conversation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by ramoss, posted 07-13-2006 8:51 AM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by ramoss, posted 07-13-2006 12:13 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 197 of 241 (331484)
07-13-2006 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by riVeRraT
07-13-2006 10:18 AM


Re: Moral standards
I will give you some background on one of them.
ONe fo them was brought up in a fundamentalist church. After they grew up, they were disconnent in that church,and went from church to church to church. Then, at age 45, they gave up the idea of there being a god. They felt a great deal of relief, because they had felt they were lying to themselves for a long time.
Another one was a minister for 50 years before he publicly became an atheist. (That one was personally startling to me)
The main point is that people have had postivie life affirming experiances leaving christianity , the same way other people have had life affirming postive experiances going to it.
I think it is the shedding of an 'old' way of thought to be refreshed in a 'new' way of thought that gives the experiance, and the original
belief system and the later belief system is not as important as the feeling of renewal.
From what I have seen (mind you, it is a small sample), this sense of renewal going to atheism was accompanied by a heightened awareness of compassion to their fellow man. I am quite sure that the same thing happened to people who became 'born again'.
The people who left Christianity and became atheists did not become 'bad' people suddenly. If anything, they acted better, because they felt better about themselves.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by riVeRraT, posted 07-13-2006 10:18 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by riVeRraT, posted 07-14-2006 7:31 AM ramoss has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 198 of 241 (331688)
07-14-2006 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by ramoss
07-13-2006 12:13 PM


Re: Moral standards
Another one was a minister for 50 years before he publicly became an atheist. (That one was personally startling to me)
That doesn't startle me in the least. He was only a minister by faith alone.
I think it is the shedding of an 'old' way of thought to be refreshed in a 'new' way of thought that gives the experiance, and the original
belief system and the later belief system is not as important as the feeling of renewal.
I wouldn't say it happened like that for me. I accepted no new belief system once I had felt the Holy Spirit. I was already believing, on faith alone. In other words, I read the bible, and agreed on what I thought it meant morally, and decided to follow it. But once I felt the Holy Spirit, it was a completely different story, and a life changing event, not done by my own decision, but one done by the power of God. I was/is not ever capable of making such a change like that by my own will. If you knew me before, and afer you would agree to that.
From what I have seen (mind you, it is a small sample), this sense of renewal going to atheism was accompanied by a heightened awareness of compassion to their fellow man. I am quite sure that the same thing happened to people who became 'born again'.
I think it is more a sense of relief, that they don't have to conform to a set of rules, and then can be who they are in God eyes. Whether they confess to believe or not. Again I have to point out that religion and God are 2 different things.
Just like you look at the world around you. IT is pretty obvious to me, if that God created the world, we can learn about God by studying the world, and all that's in it. As we advance in knowledge we can clearly see just how precious it is, and what a responsibility we have to keep it that way. As we advance in technology, we have a moral responsibility to uphold, that is where the different belief systems start conflicting a bit.
This heightened awareness towards my fellow man is not what I experienced. I am sorry for doing this, but I am going to throw in a bible verse here, one of the most important ones IMO, and I really want you to ponder it for a sec.
Acts 1:6So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"
7He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
To be a witness means you have actually seen or experienced something. That is the difference between someone who believes by faith alone, and someone who has experienced the Holy Spirit. I could not understand this until I went through it myself. They were just words up until that point. I thought that only the people of that time were privileged to experience such a thing.
I know what your thinking, and that is all religions have some kind of experience, or "conversion experience." I just don't know about those. All I can say is what I felt. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth, it is truth.
Do you know the feeling you get when someone tells you the truth? Times that by a thousand, and you'll start to get the picture. This is way different than some kind of hieghtened awareness towards my fellow man. It is way to complex to be covered in a single post, or even a single thread.
There was a memeber of EVC that was trying to down play my experience once, telling me it was all BS, and the reason why was because he had been through 5 conversion experiences himself. Not to put him down or anything, but come-on, how can any of them be valid or life changing if they were real? If there is one truth, and that is the way to God, then it is built inside you. Surely if this is the way to know the truth, and the devil exists, then there will be fakes out there. I don't know if all the other religions are fakes or if they were put there by God, because they need to be, but only one way is going to work for you. The truth will resound within your soul like someone hitting a tuning fork, and the sound is in perfect harmonics with every cell in your body.
Atheism, religion, those are belief systems. Agnostics don't know what to belive. Truth is what is. God is what is.
The people who left Christianity and became atheists did not become 'bad' people suddenly. If anything, they acted better, because they felt better about themselves.
I am more fine with that, than you know. I broke away from "christianity" when I was 8 years old. God made me smart enough to realize that the Catholic church I was in, was full of BS. I was able to look at the world without any pre-conceived notions about who and what God is. I was able to start making sense of it with the brains God gave me. I was free. I did not know if God existed, so I was agnostic for the next 17 years. Then my daughter was born, and a bell went off. I started searching more for God. another 8 years, and I accepted Him by faith alone. Does that even make you a believer? I was still not sure in my heart, but I was still seeking. another 6 years, then God just called me out, nad then it was more than "faith alone".
Are Atheists dangerous? Hardly. But with no moral standard to go on, it can be anything goes. Who knows what could happen, or what kind of society we could become? Are all atheists good? no. Are all christians good? no. Do we become a Godless soceity? Are we governed by the "greater good"? Just what is the greater good anyway? Anything science deems to be good? I am only partially ok with that, because I believe science can discover a lot of what is good, and why. However love is good, and yet science cannot fully define it. I think love needs to be a part of who and what we are on this earth, and if God is love, then God is part of it. Atheist don't believe in God so where does that leave us, that is my point. The morals of an atheist are not defined at all. Somehow most people in here seemed to think, that I meant that automatically makes an atheist a bad person. That couldn't be further from the truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by ramoss, posted 07-13-2006 12:13 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by ramoss, posted 07-14-2006 9:47 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 200 by LinearAq, posted 07-14-2006 10:34 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 199 of 241 (331716)
07-14-2006 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by riVeRraT
07-14-2006 7:31 AM


Re: Moral standards
Funny thing.
When it comez to Christians, I have noticed that 'anything goes' too. I have seen must justification of bigotry using the Bible.
As for what you think other people experianced, you are assuming. I can not.
I also don't accept any of your quotes from the new testament as being valid. I don't accept the New Testament as a source of truth or wisdom at all. Those quotes are irrelavent to me. It might bring you great plesure and self jusitifcation to contemplate them. HOwever, it is meaningless to any non-christian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by riVeRraT, posted 07-14-2006 7:31 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by riVeRraT, posted 07-14-2006 4:21 PM ramoss has not replied

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 200 of 241 (331722)
07-14-2006 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by riVeRraT
07-14-2006 7:31 AM


Re: Moral standards
riVeRrat writes:
Are Atheists dangerous? Hardly. But with no moral standard to go on, it can be anything goes. Who knows what could happen, or what kind of society we could become?
This is confusing to me. You have stated several times that athiests have no moral standard to go on, yet you have failed to make a case for that. In fact, you have not even tried to beyond the statement that the athiest's morality standard (none) is inferior to your standard (Bible).
Since you are saying that the Bible's standard is superior to no standard at all, you should be able to show us that it is. The least you could do is show us that it is a consistent standard.
In what way is the moral standard of the Bible, superior to the subjective moral standard of Athiests?
If you say it is superior because it is an absolute standard, please provide an example from the Bible of that absolute moral standard.
Do you have some examples of unambiguous moral rules that every Christian church professes to follow today?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by riVeRraT, posted 07-14-2006 7:31 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by riVeRraT, posted 07-14-2006 4:32 PM LinearAq has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 201 of 241 (331783)
07-14-2006 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by ramoss
07-14-2006 9:47 AM


Re: Moral standards
I have seen must justification of bigotry using the Bible.
Right which justifies the original statement I made. IT becomes debatable then. Your a smart guy, you've probably read a lot of the bible. Can you possibly fathom how people can use the bible as justification for bigotry?
You can debate it based on what the bible says. If I was atheist and a bigot, it really wouldn't be that debatable. You couldn't come to me and say, your not following your ways correctly, you are not who you say you are.
I could say, I am a bigot, and thats it. Closed case. But if I was Christian and said that, it would be a whole different story.
Those quotes are irrelavent to me.
They were irrelavent to me also, until I experienced them.
Blessings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by ramoss, posted 07-14-2006 9:47 AM ramoss has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 202 of 241 (331787)
07-14-2006 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by LinearAq
07-14-2006 10:34 AM


Re: Moral standards
You have stated several times that athiests have no moral standard to go on, yet you have failed to make a case for that.
I don't have to make a case for it. It is what it is. The Atheists have made the case for me, right here in this thread.
If there is a morality standard, then show it to me. I believe a few people have posted different standards for themselves in here already.
In fact, you have not even tried to beyond the statement that the athiest's morality standard (none) is inferior to your standard (Bible).
Did I ever claim one was better than the other?
I only claimed one was debatable, and one wasn't.
A few atheists have said that yes it is debatable, but what standard are we using to debate it? We can discuss it, but we can't debate it really.
Since you are saying that the Bible's standard is superior to no standard at all, you should be able to show us that it is. The least you could do is show us that it is a consistent standard.
I never said that either. I know many more upstanding atheists than Christians, so where does that leave us?
If there was one standard I could pick from the bible, that would be love. Love one another, as you love yourself.
Do you have some examples of unambiguous moral rules that every Christian church professes to follow today?
They should at the very least be following the 2 golden rules. But I hardly see that happening in reality.
My church, almost every meeting we have, we go over those 2 rules, and all the little things that make those rules happen, and see how we are doing with it. Things like speaking the truth in love, being humble, soft eyes and voice, not judging, being open to critisism, etc.
Only by going over these things, can we see how the enemy of our souls start to infiltrate our lives, and then we have to take a step back and correct ourselves. It is very difficult to do these things, and it shows me in one way, how we are born into a life of sin. There seems to be no escape, so you learn to live by grace. I think atheist live by grace better than Christians.
It is funny, how simple of a statement I made, and how everyone took it the wrong way. My original statement stands, and has not been sucessfully reffutted IMO. Somehow everyone took that as atheists being bad, and Christians being good, when that is not what I said at all. Makes me wonder.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by LinearAq, posted 07-14-2006 10:34 AM LinearAq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by LinearAq, posted 07-15-2006 8:28 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 203 of 241 (331919)
07-15-2006 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by riVeRraT
07-14-2006 4:32 PM


Implication of superiority
LinearAq writes:
In fact, you have not even tried to beyond the statement that the athiest's morality standard (none) is inferior to your standard (Bible).
riVeRrat writes:
Did I ever claim one was better than the other?
Well, yes you did.
in message 198, RR writes:
Are Atheists dangerous? Hardly. But with no moral standard to go on, it can be anything goes. Who knows what could happen, or what kind of society we could become?
Here, you say that athiests are not dangerous but imply that the lack of a "moral standard" is dangerous. That's my interpretation of what you wrote. If that is not what you meant then please explain what you meant by "...no moral standard..." leading to "...anything goes...".
By implying that the lack of a supposedly non-relative moral standard is dangerous for society, and by your following the Christian "non-relative" moral standard, you ARE saying that your standard is "better" than that of athiests.
So how about some support for this assertion.
1. Do athiests really have "no moral standard" or is it merely a relative moral standard?
2. Does Jesus actually provide an absolute moral standard or is it a relative? Please provide substantiation that the absolute standard is actually absolute.
3. Assuming the moral standard provided by Jesus is absolute, does every Christian act in the same manner in a particular situation, when they feel they are following this absolute moral standard?
4. If not, then how do you explain differing actions in similar situations by people claiming to follow the same standards?
RR writes:
My original statement stands, and has not been sucessfully reffutted IMO.
Please forgive my oversight. What was your original statement and which message was it in?(so I can place it in context)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by riVeRraT, posted 07-14-2006 4:32 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by riVeRraT, posted 07-15-2006 10:05 AM LinearAq has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 204 of 241 (331931)
07-15-2006 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by LinearAq
07-15-2006 8:28 AM


Re: Implication of superiority
Well, yes you did.
in message 198, RR writes:
Are Atheists dangerous? Hardly. But with no moral standard to go on, it can be anything goes. Who knows what could happen, or what kind of society we could become?
Here, you say that athiests are not dangerous but imply that the lack of a "moral standard" is dangerous. That's my interpretation of what you wrote. If that is not what you meant then please explain what you meant by "...no moral standard..." leading to "...anything goes...".
Congradulations, you get the "statement taken out of context award" for this thread.
Try re-reading the complete paragraph, and try to get out of it, that I meant that one was better than the other. Or that a lack of moral standards IS dangerous.
quote:
Are Atheists dangerous? Hardly. But with no moral standard to go on, it can be anything goes. Who knows what could happen, or what kind of society we could become? Are all atheists good? no. Are all christians good? no. Do we become a Godless soceity? Are we governed by the "greater good"? Just what is the greater good anyway? Anything science deems to be good? I am only partially ok with that, because I believe science can discover a lot of what is good, and why. However love is good, and yet science cannot fully define it. I think love needs to be a part of who and what we are on this earth, and if God is love, then God is part of it. Atheist don't believe in God so where does that leave us, that is my point. The morals of an atheist are not defined at all. Somehow most people in here seemed to think, that I meant that automatically makes an atheist a bad person. That couldn't be further from the truth.
1. Do athiests really have "no moral standard" or is it merely a relative moral standard?
There is no moral standard. Please show it to me if I am wrong.
2. Does Jesus actually provide an absolute moral standard or is it a relative? Please provide substantiation that the absolute standard is actually absolute.
Jesus does provide an absolute moral standard. It is called the Holy Spirit. We all experience it whether you believe or not. But that does not mean we actually follow it.
3. Assuming the moral standard provided by Jesus is absolute, does every Christian act in the same manner in a particular situation, when they feel they are following this absolute moral standard?
No, we are all just human. However there are many times when people who are filled by the Spirit, do act in the same manor, and get a long fine. An example from the bible would be after the day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit fell on everyone, this was the gift sent to us by Jesus:
quote:
Acts 2
The Fellowship of the Believers
42 They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. 44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
That is the standard I wish we all could live by. But I am guilty also of not living completely that way. I take many steps now towards trying to live like that, as this is where the Holy Spirit is guiding me. One must lose his life to gain it.
Anything short of that scenerio, to me, is really falling short of how Jesus wants us to be with one another. Is that situation dangerous? They all seem to be enjoying the same standard there, and God was blessing them.
4. If not, then how do you explain differing actions in similar situations by people claiming to follow the same standards?
That's pretty complicated. Some are not really knowing the truth, or the Spirit, some are decieved, some are still growing, and some are just flat out liars......cough..green miracle rag..cough...
But we can look at them(people claiming to be Christian), and debate their stance, where as on the other hand, an atheist is free to have any moral standard he chooses, whether it is the greater good, or whatever, without debate. (That is my original statement reworded)
What way is better?, where will this all lead us?, I don't know, it's just a point, and how I see it. I will not claim that one is better than the other, I will leave that judging up to God. For all I know, being an atheist for someone else, may be exactly how God wants that person to be, after all, nothing happens except by the will of the Father.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by LinearAq, posted 07-15-2006 8:28 AM LinearAq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by LinearAq, posted 07-16-2006 9:50 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
rgb
Inactive Member


Message 205 of 241 (332098)
07-15-2006 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by MUTTY6969
07-03-2006 1:10 AM


I know this is old stuff, but internet isn't an easy thing to come by in the part of the world where I'm at!
I have no intention of discussing such an issue with Rob. Some feel that he is really trying while others feel that he has lots of humility. I personally think he is intellectually dishonest and he knows it, too. I can already imagine what he is going to say about the gay rights issue. It's going to be something along the line of it not being natural and something like "if you put a bunch of gays on an island they will eventually die out..." (ahem... riverrat)
Anyway, I apologize for the interruption. There is much prejudice where I am currently at, but at least these people have an excuse. They are not living in a society where diversity or free will is encouraged. It just hurts to see intolerance happening in the most diversed country on the planet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by MUTTY6969, posted 07-03-2006 1:10 AM MUTTY6969 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by MUTTY6969, posted 07-16-2006 12:51 AM rgb has replied
 Message 209 by Rob, posted 07-16-2006 1:42 AM rgb has not replied

  
MUTTY6969
Member (Idle past 6191 days)
Posts: 65
From: ARIZONA
Joined: 05-20-2006


Message 206 of 241 (332124)
07-16-2006 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by rgb
07-15-2006 11:21 PM


Yes, I agree, the gay issue does pose a problem for most Christians...
What country are you referring to?

"The point now is how do we work together to achieve important goals. And one such goal is a democracy in Germany." ”George W. Bush, D.C., May 5, 2006

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by rgb, posted 07-15-2006 11:21 PM rgb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by rgb, posted 07-16-2006 12:58 AM MUTTY6969 has replied

  
rgb
Inactive Member


Message 207 of 241 (332125)
07-16-2006 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by MUTTY6969
07-16-2006 12:51 AM


The country where it's 100 degrees and 5,000% humidity all the freakin' time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by MUTTY6969, posted 07-16-2006 12:51 AM MUTTY6969 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by MUTTY6969, posted 07-16-2006 1:18 AM rgb has not replied

  
MUTTY6969
Member (Idle past 6191 days)
Posts: 65
From: ARIZONA
Joined: 05-20-2006


Message 208 of 241 (332129)
07-16-2006 1:18 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by rgb
07-16-2006 12:58 AM


Still not sure? I don’t mean to pry, just curious.

"The point now is how do we work together to achieve important goals. And one such goal is a democracy in Germany." ”George W. Bush, D.C., May 5, 2006

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by rgb, posted 07-16-2006 12:58 AM rgb has not replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 209 of 241 (332132)
07-16-2006 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by rgb
07-15-2006 11:21 PM


I can already imagine what he is going to say about the gay rights issue.
If I respond to this, will I be off topic?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by rgb, posted 07-15-2006 11:21 PM rgb has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by AdminNosy, posted 07-16-2006 2:19 AM Rob has not replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 210 of 241 (332137)
07-16-2006 2:19 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by Rob
07-16-2006 1:42 AM


Topic?
Yes, thanks Rob for being careful while others have not been.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Rob, posted 07-16-2006 1:42 AM Rob has not replied

  
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