Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 113 (8790 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 09-24-2017 3:26 PM
359 online now:
DrJones*, JonF, PaulK, Phat (AdminPhat), RAZD, ringo, Tangle, Tanypteryx (8 members, 351 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Porkncheese
Upcoming Birthdays: Tempe 12ft Chicken
Post Volume:
Total: 819,356 Year: 23,962/21,208 Month: 1,927/2,468 Week: 20/416 Day: 20/24 Hour: 1/4

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
...
89
10
1112
...
15Next
Author Topic:   The "Gospel" Of John
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 136 of 215 (167818)
12-13-2004 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by purpledawn
12-13-2004 6:06 AM


In very early days, animal sacrifice to the gods was supposed to be food for the gods. The gods needed humans as much as humans needed gods.

Even in Leviticus, "the priest shall burn it on the altar as food offered by fire to the Lord" (3:11).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by purpledawn, posted 12-13-2004 6:06 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by arachnophilia, posted 12-14-2004 5:40 AM robinrohan has not yet responded
 Message 144 by purpledawn, posted 12-14-2004 6:42 AM robinrohan has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29364
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 137 of 215 (167828)
12-13-2004 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Nighttrain
12-13-2004 6:13 PM


John, Paul and the Time of the Hellenes.
With the levelling of Jerusalem, were the Jewish Christians so scattered that Paul`s version gained the upper hand?

There is little doubt that with the destruction of Jerusalem the bureaucracy that was in place in Palestine was severely disrupted. I think there are several other factors though that can be seen in the various Bibles and Canon that can be found in the Christian Communion.

The Christian Church in Egypt and Ethiopia were pretty well established by that time. It appears that many of the significant people from the original Apostles headed south, not unexpected condisering that was away from the Roman power and a historic presence for Judaism. If we look at the Ethiopian Bible as an example, it is quite different than the Hellenistic one.

Another major issue IMHO is that for the Western Orthodox Churches (RC,COE, Protestant) we are getting a filtered history. When the Church was Nationalized and Politicized, all of the original POV and the perspective of those other than the Hellene Sects was lost. Instead, all we see is the politically approved history as determined under Constantine.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Nighttrain, posted 12-13-2004 6:13 PM Nighttrain has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 266 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 138 of 215 (167983)
12-14-2004 5:22 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by dpardo
12-13-2004 6:02 PM


The Egyptians knew that they were not coming back. The text even says that the Egyptians were urgent upon them to leave. The term "borrowed" here does not imply that they were going to return the items.

no, the original pretext of the whole charade was going out into the wilderness for a ceremony, from which they would return. it was this that pharoah wouldn't allow them to do, and this they were sending them to.

the text would not say "lent" if they knew they wouldn't come back. seriously, read your own quote again. it's one big trick, that god himself actually plays a part in.

If you are referring to the flood in Genesis, God more accurately spared the "millions of innocent children" from the adults (Genesis 6:5):

no, i was refering to passover, continuing the exodus theme.

I guess it didn't occur to you to look at it from God's perspective for a second.

no, it has. and that EXACTLY the point.

God lied?

Let's see your support for this?

genesis 2 and 3. i'd quote it again, but i'm getting tired of this debate.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by dpardo, posted 12-13-2004 6:02 PM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by dpardo, posted 12-15-2004 12:24 PM arachnophilia has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 266 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 139 of 215 (167984)
12-14-2004 5:25 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by dpardo
12-13-2004 6:05 PM


What?

You lost me here.

Jesus is breaking God's law by claiming to be God even if he is, in fact, God (the son)?

is jesus a man? (at least in part)

is jesus a jew? (descended from jacob)

if he was, then he is bound by the law, no different than any other man.

why do people make GOD out to be bound by his own laws, but that jesus was NOT bound by god's laws? that makes no sense. for jesus to have not sinned, he had to have NOT SINNED.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by dpardo, posted 12-13-2004 6:05 PM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by dpardo, posted 12-15-2004 11:19 AM arachnophilia has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 266 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 140 of 215 (167985)
12-14-2004 5:28 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by dpardo
12-13-2004 6:12 PM


He can't "just" forgive us when we sin.

so there is something that god cannot do? blasphemy.

Before Jesus, the sin offering was required, and it was offered in faith.

Jesus forgave sins (in the instances mentioned in the gospels) because of their faith.

After his death, our faith (in Jesus) is the instrument by which our sins are forgiven.

i revert back to my questions. how do jews atone for sins? salvation and sacrifice are clearly NOT linked. sacrifices were given out of a personal desire to do so, not god needing dead animals.

in fact, those dead animals often served the purpose of feeding the clergy. tell me, did the sanhedrin eat jesus?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by dpardo, posted 12-13-2004 6:12 PM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by dpardo, posted 12-15-2004 11:30 AM arachnophilia has responded
 Message 151 by dpardo, posted 12-15-2004 11:37 AM arachnophilia has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 266 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 141 of 215 (167986)
12-14-2004 5:30 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by dpardo
12-13-2004 6:15 PM


Re: who am i?
When you can perform miracles (heal, raise people from the dead, etc.), please send me an e-mail.

while we're on challenges of faith, try mark's definition of a christian on for size:

quote:
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

go drink some bleach and then give me an e-mail.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by dpardo, posted 12-13-2004 6:15 PM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Nighttrain, posted 12-14-2004 5:38 PM arachnophilia has responded
 Message 146 by DrJones*, posted 12-14-2004 6:02 PM arachnophilia has responded
 Message 152 by dpardo, posted 12-15-2004 11:45 AM arachnophilia has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 266 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 142 of 215 (167988)
12-14-2004 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by dpardo
12-13-2004 6:25 PM


Arachnophilia,

You ask these questions as if you haven't read the bible.

no, i ask these questions as if you haven't. i'm trying to demonstrate that salvation does not lay in death, but rather faith. you demonstrate a rather large misunderstanding of the judaic roots of christianity. (as does paul, i think. which is rather ironic, paul being jewish.) a jew is not "saved" by works. or faith. most that i've talked to don't even think that way. it's simply for who they are: god's chosen, and it's not in terms of being saved from anything. sticking to the law comes a form of respect god's love.

Romans 11 says:

telling me to read that chapter would have been far more efficient. and i still don't like paul, nor pauline christianity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by dpardo, posted 12-13-2004 6:25 PM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by dpardo, posted 12-15-2004 11:47 AM arachnophilia has responded
 Message 154 by dpardo, posted 12-15-2004 12:03 PM arachnophilia has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 266 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 143 of 215 (167989)
12-14-2004 5:40 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by robinrohan
12-13-2004 6:27 PM


In very early days, animal sacrifice to the gods was supposed to be food for the gods. The gods needed humans as much as humans needed gods.

Even in Leviticus, "the priest shall burn it on the altar as food offered by fire to the Lord" (3:11).

there's some suggestion that sacrifices evolved sort of organically out of a way satisfy predators that would hunt the flocks and herds, and into a way to ward off and satisfy evil spirits.

the verse about azazel in leviticus may be evidence of this.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by robinrohan, posted 12-13-2004 6:27 PM robinrohan has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 990 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 144 of 215 (168001)
12-14-2004 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by robinrohan
12-13-2004 6:27 PM


My reply is here.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by robinrohan, posted 12-13-2004 6:27 PM robinrohan has not yet responded

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 1526 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 145 of 215 (168215)
12-14-2004 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by arachnophilia
12-14-2004 5:30 AM


Re: who am i?
quote:
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Dammit,Arach, you exposed my secret plan to separate real Christians from PCs (Pretend or Pseudo-Christians). So far, I haven`t needed to use the poisoned chalice
This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by arachnophilia, posted 12-14-2004 5:30 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by arachnophilia, posted 12-15-2004 1:22 AM Nighttrain has not yet responded

    
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1679
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.3


Message 146 of 215 (168223)
12-14-2004 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by arachnophilia
12-14-2004 5:30 AM


Re: who am i?
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

So thats where snake handling comes from.


*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by arachnophilia, posted 12-14-2004 5:30 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by arachnophilia, posted 12-15-2004 1:23 AM DrJones* has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 266 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 147 of 215 (168375)
12-15-2004 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Nighttrain
12-14-2004 5:38 PM


Re: who am i?
Dammit,Arach, you exposed my secret plan to separate real Christians from PCs (Pretend or Pseudo-Christians). So far, I haven`t needed to use the poisoned chalice

sorry, but if we we're going to play the "you're not a christian" game, i'm gonna win.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Nighttrain, posted 12-14-2004 5:38 PM Nighttrain has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 266 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 148 of 215 (168376)
12-15-2004 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by DrJones*
12-14-2004 6:02 PM


Re: who am i?
So thats where snake handling comes from.

yes. and drinking stricnine. they build up slow tolerances. so, yes, the crazies and pentecostals are strictly biblical.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by DrJones*, posted 12-14-2004 6:02 PM DrJones* has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 215 (168490)
12-15-2004 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by arachnophilia
12-14-2004 5:25 AM


Arachnophilia writes:

why do people make GOD out to be bound by his own laws, but that jesus was NOT bound by god's laws? that makes no sense. for jesus to have not sinned, he had to have NOT SINNED.

I am still unclear what you are at odds with here.

If Jesus, who is God the Son, claimed to be God, where is the sin?

He is being truthful.

He did not claim to be God the Father.

Remember the whole Trinity doctrine?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by arachnophilia, posted 12-14-2004 5:25 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by arachnophilia, posted 12-16-2004 4:20 AM dpardo has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 150 of 215 (168498)
12-15-2004 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by arachnophilia
12-14-2004 5:28 AM


Arachnophilia writes:

so there is something that god cannot do? blasphemy.

Interesting attempt to quote mine me.

God cannot just "brush off" sin because he is just and holy. It would be a violation of his nature and decrees.

Even though you may not personally see it, all unconfessed and unrepented sin receives punishment.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by arachnophilia, posted 12-14-2004 5:28 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by arachnophilia, posted 12-16-2004 4:24 AM dpardo has responded

  
Prev1
...
89
10
1112
...
15Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017