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Author Topic:   The "Gospel" Of John
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 151 of 215 (168505)
12-15-2004 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by arachnophilia
12-14-2004 5:28 AM


Arachnophilia writes:

in fact, those dead animals often served the purpose of feeding the clergy. tell me, did the sanhedrin eat jesus?

Jesus sacrifice was not exactly like the animal sacrificies. I think it's pretty obvious but...

I will find and post the explanation.

Added in edit:

I already posted the explanation in Message 97.

This message has been edited by dpardo, 12-15-2004 12:18 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by arachnophilia, posted 12-14-2004 5:28 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by arachnophilia, posted 12-16-2004 4:25 AM dpardo has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 152 of 215 (168514)
12-15-2004 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by arachnophilia
12-14-2004 5:30 AM


Arachnophilia writes:

while we're on challenges of faith, try mark's definition of a christian on for size:

quote:

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

go drink some bleach and then give me an e-mail.

Now you are quote mining Jesus.

Mark 16:13-20 gives us the context of your quote:

13 And they [those that had seen the risen Christ] went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14 Afterward he [Jesus] appeared unto the eleven [Apostles] as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

He was specifically addressing the Apostles.

I am not an Apostle like the eleven.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by arachnophilia, posted 12-14-2004 5:30 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by arachnophilia, posted 12-16-2004 4:29 AM dpardo has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 153 of 215 (168515)
12-15-2004 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by arachnophilia
12-14-2004 5:38 AM


Arachnophilia writes:

telling me to read that chapter would have been far more efficient. and i still don't like paul, nor pauline christianity.

The thing is, Arachnophilia, that without Paul, what you have is Arachnophilian Christianity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by arachnophilia, posted 12-14-2004 5:38 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Nighttrain, posted 12-15-2004 7:01 PM dpardo has responded
 Message 172 by arachnophilia, posted 12-16-2004 4:32 AM dpardo has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 154 of 215 (168523)
12-15-2004 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by arachnophilia
12-14-2004 5:38 AM


Arachnophilia writes:

a jew is not "saved" by works. or faith. most that i've talked to don't even think that way. it's simply for who they are: god's chosen, and it's not in terms of being saved from anything. sticking to the law comes a form of respect god's love.

The context of Paul's letter to the Galatians that follows is: the gospel had been preached to the Galatians and the Church at Galatia was growing and maturing...

Galatians 1:6-24:

6 I [Paul] marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.
21 Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia;
22 And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:
23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.
24 And they glorified God in me.

Paul continues and explains to them what you are struggling with concerning the Law...

Galatians 3:3-14:

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God,
it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Emphasis mine.

Edit: Grammar.

This message has been edited by dpardo, 12-15-2004 12:08 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by arachnophilia, posted 12-14-2004 5:38 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by arachnophilia, posted 12-16-2004 4:38 AM dpardo has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 155 of 215 (168528)
12-15-2004 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by arachnophilia
12-14-2004 5:22 AM


Arachnophilia writes:

no, the original pretext of the whole charade was going out into the wilderness for a ceremony, from which they would return. it was this that pharoah wouldn't allow them to do, and this they were sending them to.

the text would not say "lent" if they knew they wouldn't come back. seriously, read your own quote again. it's one big trick, that god himself actually plays a part in.

I will read the entire account again and get back to you on this one. What you are saying makes sense.

If they were prevented from returning the items because the Pharoah changed his mind (yet again) and sent the Egyptian Army after them, is it stealing?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by arachnophilia, posted 12-14-2004 5:22 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by arachnophilia, posted 12-16-2004 4:41 AM dpardo has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 987 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 156 of 215 (168547)
12-15-2004 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by dpardo
12-09-2004 2:03 PM


Re: Follow or Acknowledge
Since you prefer to play ring-around-the-roses with Arach, can I assume that you are done with our discussion of John 9:22 and that you concede that Jews were not thrown out of the synagogues for following or acknowledging Jesus during his ministry?

quote:
dpardo wrote:
To my knowledge, there is no verse(s) in the other gospels that corroborates John's statement in John 9:22


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by dpardo, posted 12-09-2004 2:03 PM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by dpardo, posted 12-15-2004 2:22 PM purpledawn has responded
 Message 158 by dpardo, posted 12-15-2004 2:31 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 157 of 215 (168569)
12-15-2004 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by purpledawn
12-15-2004 1:19 PM


Re: Follow or Acknowledge
Purpledawn writes:

...can I assume that you are done with our discussion of John 9:22 and that you concede that Jews were not thrown out of the synagogues for following or acknowledging Jesus during his ministry?

First, let me point out to you that the term in question is synagogue (singular) not synagogues (plural).

Second, the verse(s) in question in John 9:22 specifically says:

22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue."

This is in contrast to your statement:

quote:
During the ministry of Jesus, his followers were allowed in the synagogues.

So I am talking about someone confessing Jesus as the Messiah and you are talking about Jesus' followers.

As I said before, and I believe you have also noted, not all of his followers knew or believed that he was the Messiah.

Since, ultimately, most Jews did not accept Jesus as the Messiah, John's statement is not inconsistent (and hence reasonable) with the Jews behavior.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by purpledawn, posted 12-15-2004 1:19 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by purpledawn, posted 12-15-2004 4:32 PM dpardo has responded
 Message 175 by arachnophilia, posted 12-16-2004 4:45 AM dpardo has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 158 of 215 (168572)
12-15-2004 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by purpledawn
12-15-2004 1:19 PM


Re: Follow or Acknowledge
Purpledawn writes:

Since you prefer to play ring-around-the-roses with Arach

I am not "playing".

I am addressing points brought up by other EVC members.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by purpledawn, posted 12-15-2004 1:19 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by arachnophilia, posted 12-16-2004 4:46 AM dpardo has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 987 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 159 of 215 (168642)
12-15-2004 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by dpardo
12-15-2004 2:22 PM


Re: Follow or Acknowledge
Are you saying we are not done with our discussion or you just want to start the cycle all over again?

quote:
dpardo wrote:
So I am talking about someone confessing Jesus as the Messiah and you are talking about Jesus' followers.
In Message 33 I already rephrased the statement since you don't consider followers as people who have acknowledged Jesus as the messiah.
quote:
I wrote:
Show me, somewhere other than the Book of John, that Jews who acknowledged that Jesus was the messiah were put out of the synagogue during the ministry of Jesus.
If you notice, I did use synagogue (singular).

quote:
dpardo wrote:
First, let me point out to you that the term in question is synagogue (singular) not synagogues (plural).
Please don't waste my time with word games.

So far you have not shown me any evidence to counter my thoughts in Message 22.

quote:
I wrote:
During the ministry of Jesus, his followers were allowed in the synagogues. So the parents in verse 22 would not need to fear the Jews during the life of Jesus. Only after the institution of Petition 12 of the Prayer of 18 Petitions reworded to include Christians (Nazarenes) were the Christians not welcome in the synagogues.
You have fussed over followers as opposed to acknowledged and synagogues as opposed to synagogue.

If you wish to seriously continue this discussion:

Show me evidence that Jews who homologeo (confessed, professed, conceded, praised, declared, or acknowledged) openly that Jesus was the messiah were thrown out of the synagogue in Jerusalem, which is where the Pool of Siloam is located, during the ministry of Jesus.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by dpardo, posted 12-15-2004 2:22 PM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by dpardo, posted 12-15-2004 5:22 PM purpledawn has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 160 of 215 (168667)
12-15-2004 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by purpledawn
12-15-2004 4:32 PM


Re: Follow or Acknowledge
Purpledawn writes:

Show me evidence that Jews who homologeo (confessed, professed, conceded, praised, declared, or acknowledged) openly that Jesus was the messiah were thrown out of the synagogue in Jerusalem, which is where the Pool of Siloam is located, during the ministry of Jesus.

Is there any evidence, in the gospels, of anyone confessing Jesus as the Christ in a synagogue (in the time period we are referring to) period?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by purpledawn, posted 12-15-2004 4:32 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by purpledawn, posted 12-15-2004 8:37 PM dpardo has not yet responded

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 1523 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 161 of 215 (168692)
12-15-2004 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by dpardo
12-15-2004 11:47 AM


quote:
The thing is, Arachnophilia, that without Paul, what you have is Arachnophilian Christianity.

No, without Paul what you have are the Ebionites, led by the physical brother of Jesus, James.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by dpardo, posted 12-15-2004 11:47 AM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by dpardo, posted 12-15-2004 7:06 PM Nighttrain has responded
 Message 163 by jar, posted 12-15-2004 7:06 PM Nighttrain has not yet responded

    
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 162 of 215 (168696)
12-15-2004 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Nighttrain
12-15-2004 7:01 PM


Nighttrain writes:

No, without Paul what you have are the Ebionites, led by the physical brother of Jesus, James.

Do they have a different gospel?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Nighttrain, posted 12-15-2004 7:01 PM Nighttrain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Nighttrain, posted 12-15-2004 7:50 PM dpardo has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 163 of 215 (168697)
12-15-2004 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Nighttrain
12-15-2004 7:01 PM


Or perhaps a group lead by the women that followed Jesus, or ones that followed Thomas or ...


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Nighttrain, posted 12-15-2004 7:01 PM Nighttrain has not yet responded

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 1523 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 164 of 215 (168711)
12-15-2004 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by dpardo
12-15-2004 7:06 PM


quote:
Do they have a different gospel?

I believe they only followed the Gospel of Matthew.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by dpardo, posted 12-15-2004 7:06 PM dpardo has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Clark, posted 12-15-2004 11:25 PM Nighttrain has responded

    
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 987 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 165 of 215 (168730)
12-15-2004 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by dpardo
12-15-2004 5:22 PM


Re: Follow or Acknowledge
You tell me.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by dpardo, posted 12-15-2004 5:22 PM dpardo has not yet responded

  
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