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Author Topic:   The "Gospel" Of John
Clark
Inactive Member


Message 166 of 215 (168753)
12-15-2004 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Nighttrain
12-15-2004 7:50 PM


Ebionites
Little info on the Ebionites has survived and almost no writings. Weird.

They used a form of Matthew, without the first 2 chapters or so--no miraculous birth. They are an interesting group of early "heretical" Christians and seem particularly relevant to this conversation (perhaps a different thread though). They were Jewish Christians who followed the Law. They didn't follow Paul's teachings, but James, and they did not believe Jesus was God but he was the Messiah.

IMHO, they seem closer theologically to my understanding of the historical Jesus and his disciples than Orthodox Christianity.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/gospelebionites.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites

ABE: extra "the", and a bit about paul. sorry.

This message has been edited by Jamska, 12-15-2004 11:32 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Nighttrain, posted 12-15-2004 7:50 PM Nighttrain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Nighttrain, posted 12-16-2004 12:45 AM Clark has not yet responded

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 1606 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 167 of 215 (168773)
12-16-2004 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Clark
12-15-2004 11:25 PM


Re: Ebionites
Welcome, Jamska. So in the post-resurrection period, we appear to have:
---the Jewish Nazoreans (Nazarites?) who followed the apostles, including Peter, James (physical brother of Jesus)and John (the beloved disciple?)(or were they the Zebedee boys?)who may(or may not)have worshipped a divine Jesus and retained Jewish practices
---the Hellenic/Roman followers of Pauline Christianity trying to cut the ties with Jewish worship
---the Jewish Ebionites who followed the belief of a non-divine Messiah, but denied the inspiration of Paul
--- possibly the Essenes (if the DSS really refer to either the Essenes or Christianity via the Teacher of Righteousness)
---and John (via his Gospel), seeking another approach.
I think I feel a headache coming on.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Clark, posted 12-15-2004 11:25 PM Clark has not yet responded

    
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 345 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 168 of 215 (168806)
12-16-2004 4:20 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by dpardo
12-15-2004 11:19 AM


If Jesus, who is God the Son, claimed to be God, where is the sin?

because jesus was also a man, held to law of god. it is not wrong because it would be a lie; it's wrong because it detracts power from god (the father).

He did not claim to be God the Father.

Remember the whole Trinity doctrine?

yes, and it is biblically unsound.

but that is another thread.

This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 12-16-2004 04:20 AM


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 345 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 169 of 215 (168807)
12-16-2004 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by dpardo
12-15-2004 11:30 AM


Interesting attempt to quote mine me.

you said god can't do something. how is that a quotemine? i asked you if god could just forgive sin, and you said no.

look, you did it again:

God cannot just "brush off" sin because he is just and holy. It would be a violation of his nature and decrees.

that, simply put, is blasphemy. god's nature is to exist. god can do whatever he wants. remember the parable of the prodigal son? what did his father do? the only thing that died in that story was dinner. the father just brushed of the son's "sin" and forgave him.

Even though you may not personally see it, all unconfessed and unrepented sin receives punishment.

sure, ok. but does something need to die to satisfy god, or does he care more about the confession and repentance?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by dpardo, posted 12-15-2004 11:30 AM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by dpardo, posted 12-16-2004 12:30 PM arachnophilia has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 345 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 170 of 215 (168808)
12-16-2004 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by dpardo
12-15-2004 11:37 AM


Jesus sacrifice was not exactly like the animal sacrificies. I think it's pretty obvious but...

yes.

I already posted the explanation in Message 97.

and i replied that jesus doesn't fit the bill.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by dpardo, posted 12-15-2004 11:37 AM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 345 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 171 of 215 (168809)
12-16-2004 4:29 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by dpardo
12-15-2004 11:45 AM


Now you are quote mining Jesus.

no, that was you. you challenged me to miracles: healing the sick, casting out devils, etc.

i was exposing your quotemine by posting the rest of it, and offering the very same challenge to you. if you expect me heal the sick, i expect you to drink posion. quid pro quo, clarice.

He was specifically addressing the Apostles.

yes, about their evangelism. he presented those as a sign that they were on the right track. it's not that the apostle would be able to heal the sick and cast out devils and drink posion, but that they told who really believed would.

i mean, that is what the verse says. look at the quote-framing, it's in the address to the apostles abotu us, not to us about the apostles.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by dpardo, posted 12-15-2004 11:45 AM dpardo has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 345 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 172 of 215 (168810)
12-16-2004 4:32 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by dpardo
12-15-2004 11:47 AM


The thing is, Arachnophilia, that without Paul, what you have is Arachnophilian Christianity.

so i need someone to tell me what jesus said my god said? i thought this was a personal relationship, not a friend of a friend of a friend business.

there were other churches that did not have paul at their foundation, you know. nighttrain pointed out one, but the gnostics didn't either. and it should be pointed out as well that PETER was left in charge, not paul.

we have lots of stuff about jesus without paul.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by dpardo, posted 12-15-2004 11:47 AM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by dpardo, posted 12-16-2004 1:06 PM arachnophilia has not yet responded
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 345 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 173 of 215 (168811)
12-16-2004 4:38 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by dpardo
12-15-2004 12:03 PM


The context of Paul's letter to the Galatians that follows is: the gospel had been preached to the Galatians and the Church at Galatia was growing and maturing...

you grossly missed the point here dpardo.

even though i often disagree with paul, he is not rebutting what i said regarding the hebrew religion. it doesn't just fall apart with one quote from a converted jew.

he says the jews are not saved by following the law. my point, as you quoted, was that the law has nothing to do with it. they don't even think in terms of salvation: they're god's chosen. they're ALL "saved" no matter what. they follow the law out of reverance for that fact.

the law is not a curse, because it is not the key to salvation, nor is it neccessary. it's just a fact that every jew accepts to some level -- some more than others.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 345 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 174 of 215 (168812)
12-16-2004 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by dpardo
12-15-2004 12:24 PM


I will read the entire account again and get back to you on this one. What you are saying makes sense.

If they were prevented from returning the items because the Pharoah changed his mind (yet again) and sent the Egyptian Army after them, is it stealing?

yes, but the verse quoted was from the plan of the exodus. the whole point of it was that they weren't coming back, whatever pharoah said. the idea was never ACTUALLY just going out and returning, it was always leaving and going to the promised land. moses (or rather aaron) just told pharoah that so that he'd let them leave without, you know, killing them all or something.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 345 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 175 of 215 (168813)
12-16-2004 4:45 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by dpardo
12-15-2004 2:22 PM


Re: Follow or Acknowledge
So I am talking about someone confessing Jesus as the Messiah and you are talking about Jesus' followers.

anyone saying anyone else is christ tends to get you thrown out of jewish synagogues. in their mind, when the messiah comes, EVERYONE will know it, because he will sit on the throne and unite israel.

seen the third part of lord of the rings? that's the sort of messiah they're looking for.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by dpardo, posted 12-15-2004 2:22 PM dpardo has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 345 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 176 of 215 (168814)
12-16-2004 4:46 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by dpardo
12-15-2004 2:31 PM


Re: Follow or Acknowledge
Since you prefer to play ring-around-the-roses with Arach

I am not "playing".

I am addressing points brought up by other EVC members.

i feel like we're running in circles.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by dpardo, posted 12-15-2004 2:31 PM dpardo has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 177 of 215 (168904)
12-16-2004 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by arachnophilia
12-16-2004 4:24 AM


Arachnophilia writes:

you said god can't do something. how is that a quotemine? i asked you if god could just forgive sin, and you said no.

look, you did it again:

quote:
God cannot just "brush off" sin because he is just and holy. It would be a violation of his nature and decrees.

that, simply put, is blasphemy. god's nature is to exist. god can do whatever he wants. remember the parable of the prodigal son? what did his father do? the only thing that died in that story was dinner. the father just brushed of the son's "sin" and forgave him.

You are wasting your time playing word games with me.

I know that you have atleast some basic understanding of God- how much of the bible you reject, I do not know.

Among his other attributes, God is Just, Holy, and Good. He cannot violate his nature because he is not self-contradictory.

I know that you understand this concept.

BTW, the prodigal son's father, as portrayed in the parable, is not God. So, "yes", he can "just" forgive as indeed Christ has commanded us (humans) to forgive.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by arachnophilia, posted 12-16-2004 4:24 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by arachnophilia, posted 12-17-2004 1:33 AM dpardo has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 178 of 215 (168906)
12-16-2004 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by arachnophilia
12-16-2004 4:25 AM


Arachnophilia writes:

and i replied that jesus doesn't fit the bill.

Arachnophilia,

If you don't believe that Jesus died so that you can be reconciled to God, what do you believe?

You must be in such a state of confusion right now!

You can post a link to a thread where you described your beliefs if you've already posted your beliefs elsewhere.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by arachnophilia, posted 12-16-2004 4:25 AM arachnophilia has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 179 of 215 (168918)
12-16-2004 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by arachnophilia
12-16-2004 4:32 AM


Arachnophilia writes:

so i need someone to tell me what jesus said my god said? i thought this was a personal relationship, not a friend of a friend of a friend business.

there were other churches that did not have paul at their foundation, you know. nighttrain pointed out one, but the gnostics didn't either. and it should be pointed out as well that PETER was left in charge, not paul.

we have lots of stuff about jesus without paul.

Peter and Paul and the other apostles are in agreement in doctrine.

I don't know why you postulate that they had different doctrines.

In Acts 2:38, during Pentecost, Peter and the apostles were together and this Peter preached:

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

In Acts 4:12, Peter addresses the High Priest, elders, scribes, etc.:

12 Neither is there salvation in any other [besides Jesus]: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Notice how this agrees with what John 3:17-18 says:

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Acts 4:33 presents a picture of a powerful, united group of Apostles:

33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

Does this sound to you like they are divided in their doctrines?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by arachnophilia, posted 12-16-2004 4:32 AM arachnophilia has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 180 of 215 (168919)
12-16-2004 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by arachnophilia
12-16-2004 4:32 AM


Arachnophilia,

In Acts 5:12-16, again we see a powerful, UNITED, group of apostles. You paint a picture of different doctrines which simply is not the case:

12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.
14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)
15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.
16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by arachnophilia, posted 12-16-2004 4:32 AM arachnophilia has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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