Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 108 (8801 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 11-17-2017 12:19 PM
333 online now:
frako, kjsimons, ooh-child, PaulK, ringo, Tangle, Taq (7 members, 326 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: jaufre
Post Volume:
Total: 822,555 Year: 27,161/21,208 Month: 1,074/1,714 Week: 282/525 Day: 24/66 Hour: 0/6

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
101112
13
1415Next
Author Topic:   The "Gospel" Of John
jar
Member
Posts: 29601
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 181 of 215 (168968)
12-16-2004 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by dpardo
12-16-2004 1:09 PM


Dpardo

What we see is the redacted version of history written and edited by the winning faction.

What we do not see except in scattered bits is the infighting and conflicts among the various factions. Much of the data and writings have been suppressed and purged and it is only recently that many of those have come to light.

John is an example of the effort at the time to create a bureaucracy, an organized church outside the existing structure of the Judaic Faith. It is repeated in much of the Pauline tradition and somewhat in Acts.

What is missing is the information of James and his followers, the women in the leadership, the second wave of 25 and what they did, and the histories of the non-Hellenic Churches.

edited to add the e to creat. You can always tell an old programmer.

This message has been edited by jar, 12-16-2004 02:41 PM


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by dpardo, posted 12-16-2004 1:09 PM dpardo has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1044 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 182 of 215 (169165)
12-16-2004 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by dpardo
12-16-2004 1:06 PM


John Requires Belief in Jesus
Peter didn't speak of belief in Jesus.

Acts 3:19
Repent, then and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you--even Jesus. He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. For Moses said, "The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you.

Jesus told the Jews to repent and believe the "Good News" which is that the Kingdom of God was imminent. Jesus did not tell them to believe that he was the messiah or the son of God.

The apostles baptised in the name of Jesus, which is with his authority not that people must believe that he is the son of God.

If you notice, the Book of John doesn't talk of repentance. The author of John speaks of belief in Jesus as the son of God.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Peter is not in agreement with the author of John.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by dpardo, posted 12-16-2004 1:06 PM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by dpardo, posted 12-17-2004 11:46 AM purpledawn has responded
 Message 185 by dpardo, posted 12-17-2004 11:58 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 319 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 183 of 215 (169232)
12-17-2004 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by dpardo
12-16-2004 12:30 PM


consolidated, because this is getting ridiculous.

You are wasting your time playing word games with me.

no, not really. this is the fundamental nature of the problem here. it's not a word game. is it within god's power to forgive without demanding anything in return? to say no is to challenge the omnipotence of god.

know that you have atleast some basic understanding of God- how much of the bible you reject, I do not know.

i don't know either. still haven't read all of it. and my understanding of god, and reading of the bible is always evolving.

Among his other attributes, God is Just, Holy, and Good. He cannot violate his nature because he is not self-contradictory.

I know that you understand this concept.

and yet the bible proves you wrong on so many numerous occasions. whole biblical texts like job deal with trying to explain an unjust god. i know you've seen the other thread where i listed some of the instances in which god does not follow his own rules.

it's not wrong of god. he's god, and his law and standards of justness are for US. we are not measured on the same scale, because god cannot be measured on ANY scale.

the bible records so very many instances of a contradictory god. your view simply cannot be right, if you claim you believe in the bible.

BTW, the prodigal son's father, as portrayed in the parable, is not God. So, "yes", he can "just" forgive as indeed Christ has commanded us (humans) to forgive.

so an ordinary human being is more powerful than god?

and yes, the father in the story IS god. christ is telling us about the forgiveness of god.

If you don't believe that Jesus died so that you can be reconciled to God, what do you believe?

not sure. like i said, "crisis of faith." which means i don't know what to think. you also seem to forget that i'm coming from the same exact viewpoint and set of beliefs that you are. replying with things i've heard all my life doesn't help.

You must be in such a state of confusion right now!

quite.

You can post a link to a thread where you described your beliefs if you've already posted your beliefs elsewhere.

what prompted me to become a christian ironically was not christ. it was abraham. yep, converted by genesis, of all books. strange, no? something about the god of abraham struck me as fundamentally true, and i chose to believe in the system that told me about him.

that and i agreed with all the teachings of jesus. he sounded like a very wise and smart man, so i chose to believe he was the son of god and died for me. but i think i was supposed to be jewish. my beliefs line up much more closely with reform judaism.

next fall i'm probably going to start working on learning hebrew.

Peter and Paul and the other apostles are in agreement in doctrine.

actually, peter had a separate church.

I don't know why you postulate that they had different doctrines.

history is told by the victors. we have stuff now that indicates some of the positions of belief systems that got killed off (sometimes literally) by pauline christianity.

In Acts 4:12, Peter addresses the High Priest, elders, scribes, etc.:

well, yes. their overall beliefs were basically the same: all believed in jesus. you and i are the same in that respect (for the moment at least), but look at how different our view points are.

see purpledawn's post. he knows what's going on. my beliefs are closer to what he describes peter as saying, your's are obviously in favor of john's.

In Acts 5:12-16, again we see a powerful, UNITED, group of apostles. You paint a picture of different doctrines which simply is not the case:

acts was also written by luke, who lived some time after the events, probably during a united pauline church. he set about writing luke/acts in order to consolidate a history of the church and it's traditions, and so you should expect to see some unifactions.

luke also did not check historical accuracy very well. he reports the slaughter of the innocent (which mimics passover) that appears nowhere in any historical document (roman or jewish) from the time.

we know for a fact that peter and paul were of different sects, with different books. and we know that MANY such different sects existed until about ad 330, when constantine converted and ordered a collection of the books, and the unifaction process began under the pauline church. for what reason, i'm unsure.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by dpardo, posted 12-16-2004 12:30 PM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by dpardo, posted 12-17-2004 12:02 PM arachnophilia has not yet responded
 Message 187 by dpardo, posted 12-17-2004 12:09 PM arachnophilia has responded
 Message 188 by dpardo, posted 12-17-2004 12:10 PM arachnophilia has not yet responded
 Message 189 by dpardo, posted 12-17-2004 12:12 PM arachnophilia has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 184 of 215 (169370)
12-17-2004 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by purpledawn
12-16-2004 9:00 PM


Re: John Requires Belief in Jesus
Purpledawn writes:

Peter didn't speak of belief in Jesus.

1Peter 1-9:

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Purpledawn writes:

If you notice, the Book of John doesn't talk of repentance.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by purpledawn, posted 12-16-2004 9:00 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by purpledawn, posted 12-17-2004 8:30 PM dpardo has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 185 of 215 (169375)
12-17-2004 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by purpledawn
12-16-2004 9:00 PM


Re: John Requires Belief in Jesus
Purpledawn writes:

If you notice, the Book of John doesn't talk of repentance.

What is repentance?

John 8:11:

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

John 5:14:

14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by purpledawn, posted 12-16-2004 9:00 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 186 of 215 (169376)
12-17-2004 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by arachnophilia
12-17-2004 1:33 AM


Arachnophilia writes:

whole biblical texts like job deal with trying to explain an unjust god.

This is your interpretation of Job?

Please start a new thread if you want to discuss the Book of Job.

Unjust God? (sigh)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by arachnophilia, posted 12-17-2004 1:33 AM arachnophilia has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 187 of 215 (169379)
12-17-2004 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by arachnophilia
12-17-2004 1:33 AM


Arachnophilia writes:

so an ordinary human being is more powerful than god?

and yes, the father in the story IS god. christ is telling us about the forgiveness of god.

The forgiveness of an ordinary human being is not the same as God's forgiveness.

We didn't make the rules. Neither did we make the punishment.

Our rules and punishments are not the same as God's rules and punishments.

No, the father in the story is not God. The story is of a human father that Jesus uses to construct a comparison that his audience would understand.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by arachnophilia, posted 12-17-2004 1:33 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by arachnophilia, posted 12-17-2004 6:12 PM dpardo has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 188 of 215 (169380)
12-17-2004 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by arachnophilia
12-17-2004 1:33 AM


Arachnophilia writes:

see purpledawn's post. he knows what's going on.

I thought Purpledawn was a "she".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by arachnophilia, posted 12-17-2004 1:33 AM arachnophilia has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 189 of 215 (169382)
12-17-2004 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by arachnophilia
12-17-2004 1:33 AM


Arachnophilia writes:

i don't know either. still haven't read all of it. and my understanding of god, and reading of the bible is always evolving.

Perhaps it would clear some issues up if you read all of the bible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by arachnophilia, posted 12-17-2004 1:33 AM arachnophilia has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 319 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 190 of 215 (169548)
12-17-2004 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by dpardo
12-17-2004 12:09 PM


consolidates, again. job moved to new thread.

The forgiveness of an ordinary human being is not the same as God's forgiveness.

then why does jesus compare them?

We didn't make the rules. Neither did we make the punishment.

usually, the things we forgive other people are tresspasses against us. the things go forgives of us are tresspasses against god. i don't see a difference; in both cases it is the rule-making party forgiving the rule-breaking party. that is, afterall, the definition of forgiveness.

Our rules and punishments are not the same as God's rules and punishments.

why not?

No, the father in the story is not God. The story is of a human father that Jesus uses to construct a comparison that his audience would understand.

what's he making the comparison to, then? tell me you don't misunderstand ALL of jesus's parables this badly.

I thought Purpledawn was a "she".

"he" is, or used to be, the gender-neutral pronoun case in the english language. if i offended purpledawn, i'm sorry, but i didn't actually know which gender purpledawn was. perhaps "it" would be more preferential?

Perhaps it would clear some issues up if you read all of the bible.

you read amos? good book. nehemiah? there's 1500 pages of old testament alone, and i just don't have the time. i doubt you've read all of the bible either, but even if you have, you're showing signs of not having understood it. ie: the parables. and everyone's read those.

no, i don't suspect that the book of amos would clear anything up for me. or any of the other books i haven't read. the books i HAVE read cause enough problems. contradictions don't go away by addition, you know.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by dpardo, posted 12-17-2004 12:09 PM dpardo has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by purpledawn, posted 12-17-2004 6:51 PM arachnophilia has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1044 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 191 of 215 (169571)
12-17-2004 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by arachnophilia
12-17-2004 6:12 PM


quote:
"he" is, or used to be, the gender-neutral pronoun case in the english language.
No offense taken. Since we don't always know gender on this forum, I understood it as you intended.

For the record though or inquiring minds, I am a She.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by arachnophilia, posted 12-17-2004 6:12 PM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by arachnophilia, posted 12-18-2004 3:26 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1044 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 192 of 215 (169591)
12-17-2004 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by dpardo
12-17-2004 11:46 AM


Re: John Requires Belief in Jesus
The dpardo switch!

Since you jumped to 1 Peter, does that mean you understand that the speech supposedly made by Peter in Acts is not in agreement with the message in the Book of John?

The Book of 1 Peter is not considered to be written by the apostle Peter. It is considered to be written about 80-110CE. You'll have to research that yourself. If you read the Book of 1 Peter you will notice that the overall theme is not the same as Peter's speech in Acts. 1 Peter sounds more like Paul.

Concerning repentance and the Book of John:

You get points for trying.

The story in John 7:53-8:11 is not in the earlier manuscripts, so it is a later addition. This also shows the book has been altered.

Repentance and Sin
Literally repentance in the NT is a change in mind or heart.
Sin is to miss the mark or wander from the Laws of God.

The focus of the story in John 5 is the Sabbath. Jesus healing on the Sabbath and the man carrying his mat on the Sabbath. Repentance is not the theme of the story.

Read the stories.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by dpardo, posted 12-17-2004 11:46 AM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by dpardo, posted 12-17-2004 11:28 PM purpledawn has not yet responded
 Message 194 by Nighttrain, posted 12-18-2004 1:30 AM purpledawn has responded
 Message 197 by dpardo, posted 12-18-2004 2:13 PM purpledawn has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 193 of 215 (169623)
12-17-2004 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by purpledawn
12-17-2004 8:30 PM


Purpledawn writes:

You get points for trying.

Why thank you.

I certainly am trying!

Good night for now.

I will address your points tomorrow.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by purpledawn, posted 12-17-2004 8:30 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 1580 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 194 of 215 (169643)
12-18-2004 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by purpledawn
12-17-2004 8:30 PM


Re: John Requires Belief in Jesus
quote:
The story in John 7:53-8:11 is not in the earlier manuscripts, so it is a later addition. This also shows the book has been altered.

It might need another thread, but there is a lot of evidence that the pericope de adultera COULD have been in the earlier manuscripts.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by purpledawn, posted 12-17-2004 8:30 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by purpledawn, posted 12-18-2004 10:40 AM Nighttrain has not yet responded

    
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 319 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 195 of 215 (169652)
12-18-2004 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by purpledawn
12-17-2004 6:51 PM


For the record though or inquiring minds, I am a She.

then i will be sure to use the proper pronoun in the future.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by purpledawn, posted 12-17-2004 6:51 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
RewPrev1
...
101112
13
1415Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017