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Author Topic:   The "Gospel" Of John
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 990 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 196 of 215 (169709)
12-18-2004 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by Nighttrain
12-18-2004 1:30 AM


Pericope de Adultera
Interesting!

I did some reading. This story apparently had also been placed in the Book of Luke at one time.

It seems the Church Fathers or scribes had no problem excluding or including portions that suit their purpose. Pieces to a puzzle.

I find the story itself interesting.

The story states the woman was brought before Jesus to trap him.
As I understand it the Churches who used the story used it to show forgiveness.

Could the story be an actual representation?

The Law of Moses says to stone such women, but there is also the test of the bitter water (Numbers 5:20-31), which doesn't seem to end in death (unless the water got you). This was for suspicion of adultery.

Even Jesus said in Matthew 19:9 not to divorce except for immorality. If the wife was to be stoned, then there would have been no need to divorce.

Of course you would think that people committing adultery would be somewhat discrete so as not to have two witnesses.

Since they were standing in the temple courts, the Pharisees would not have stoned the woman right there anyway, neither could Jesus. Have you read the rules for stoning?

Excerpt from Babylonian Talmud

MISHNA IV.: The stoning-place was two heights of a man. One of the witnesses pushed him on his thighs (that he should fall with the back to the surface), but if he fell face down, he had to be turned over. If he died from the effects of the first fall, nothing more was to be done. If not, the second witness took a stone and thrust it against his heart. If he died, nothing more was to be done; but if not, all who were standing by had to throw stones on him. Thus [Deut. xvii. 7]: "The hand of the witnesses shall be first upon him, to put him to death, and the hand of all the people at the last."

Let's say the Pharisees did bring a woman who had not been charged yet to Jesus and claimed she was caught in the act of adultery. Now if Jesus answers that she should not be stoned, would he truly have broken any law?

Now if the woman truly was caught in the act of adultery, the Pharisees should have brought her before the Sanhedrin for judgement no matter what Jesus said. They themselves let her go.

Just throwing this out for discussion if you wish.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Nighttrain, posted 12-18-2004 1:30 AM Nighttrain has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 197 of 215 (169735)
12-18-2004 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by purpledawn
12-17-2004 8:30 PM


Purpledawn writes:

Since you jumped to 1 Peter, does that mean you understand that the speech supposedly made by Peter in Acts is not in agreement with the message in the Book of John?

No.

The reason I referenced 1 Peter is to show you that the New Testament is consistent.

The Book of Acts is sufficient to prove that the Gospel of John is consistent with the other gospels.

Your contention, from your extra-biblical source, concerning John 9:22:

22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.

has proven nothing. Since there is no incident in the gospels of someone confessing Jesus as the Christ in a synagogue during his ministry, we can neither confirm nor deny the veracity of the verse.

I have shown you, however, that it is a reasonable claim given all of the animosity that the unbelieving Jews had toward Jesus.

Purpledawn writes:

The Book of 1 Peter is not considered to be written by the apostle Peter. It is considered to be written about 80-110CE. You'll have to research that yourself. If you read the Book of 1 Peter you will notice that the overall theme is not the same as Peter's speech in Acts. 1 Peter sounds more like Paul.

Well if 1 Peter sounds more like Paul, you better not allow me to use it to prove anything. How convenient.

Purpledawn writes:

The story in John 7:53-8:11 is not in the earlier manuscripts, so it is a later addition. This also shows the book has been altered.

Do you have the earliest manuscripts so that you can claim something like this?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by purpledawn, posted 12-17-2004 8:30 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 990 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 198 of 215 (169770)
12-18-2004 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by dpardo
12-18-2004 2:13 PM


quote:
The Book of Acts is sufficient to prove that the Gospel of John is consistent with the other gospels.
How are the words of Peter in the Book of Acts consistent with the Book of John?

quote:
I have shown you, however, that it is a reasonable claim given all of the animosity that the unbelieving Jews had toward Jesus.
By unbelieving, I assume you mean believing that Jesus was the Messiah or do you mean believing that the Kingdom of God is at hand? What were they not believing?

According to the synoptics Jesus kept his messiahship a secret from the general public, therefore no one would be able to confess him publicly. At most he claimed to be a prophet.

Matthew 21:11
And the crowds were saying, "This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth in Galilee."

I'm not sure where you see hostility in the synoptics aside from the last day. Some of the Jewish leaders are portrayed as trying to find fault with Jesus, but they aren't portrayed as coming against the Jewish people.

Mark 11:8-11 (Matthew 21:1-9, Luke 19:29-38, John 12:12-15)
...Those who went ahead and those who followed shouted, "Hosanna!"
"Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!"
"Blessed is the coming kingdom of our father David!"...

Hey, even the author of John agreed on this one!

quote:
Since there is no incident in the gospels of someone confessing Jesus as the Christ in a synagogue during his ministry, we can neither confirm nor deny the veracity of the verse.
You don't feel it is possible to extrapolate from the known factors in the synoptics?

quote:
Do you have the earliest manuscripts so that you can claim something like this?
Actually my Bible says it, not me.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by dpardo, posted 12-18-2004 2:13 PM dpardo has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 1526 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 199 of 215 (169777)
12-18-2004 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by purpledawn
12-18-2004 7:10 PM


Hi, PD, Arach, don`t you just love these circular arguments.
Edited to add
'The Bible is inerrant.'
'How do you know?'
'The Bible tells me so.'

This message has been edited by Nighttrain, 12-18-2004 07:58 PM


This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 990 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 200 of 215 (171796)
12-27-2004 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by dpardo
12-18-2004 2:13 PM


Acts and John
I'm still waiting for you to explalin to me how the comments made by Peter in the Book of Acts are consistent with the Book of John.

Acts 3:19
Repent, then and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you--even Jesus. He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. For Moses said, "The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

In Acts Peter is speaking to a crowd of people.
In John, Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus.

How do the two concepts presented agree?


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by dpardo, posted 12-18-2004 2:13 PM dpardo has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9765
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 201 of 215 (748375)
01-25-2015 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by arachnophilia
12-07-2004 12:52 AM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
Arachnophilia writes:

the gospel of john takes a very negative stance on judaism, god's chosen, and reports christ as saying blasphemous things. i would be lying if i said these objections had nothing to do with my belief.

Jar and I are touching on John now in another thread.

First off, for the sake of this discussion lets not argue over who wrote John. Lets discuss their motive.

Much of my belief is corroborated through John. I am not Jewish. I believe I was chosen yet I have the responsibility to walk righteously and try and do the best I can.

I believe that Jesus is eternal...He was in the beginning with the Father. As a human, Jesus is the living Word. His words were formed long before He became human. (or at least before He walked on the earth.)

jar writes:

Of course words did not exist before they were invented. Words are created by men.

How do we know that man invented words? How do we know that Jesus..who was made man...invented words before the rest of us?(or not) Finally, does reality shape belief or could it be be possible that reality is shaped by God and not merely observed and documented by man? (yes I know this could be allegedly a fanciful silly argument...but it need not be taken lightly.)

jar writes:

There is the Eight Fold Path, the writings of Confucius and Mencius, the Vedas. the ...

What evidence do we have that these writings are any more inspirational than the Gospel Of John? Isnt a mans belief shaped by his preferred bias? Could it be that some of us dont want John to be potentially true?

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 9765
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 202 of 215 (748379)
01-25-2015 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by jar
12-10-2004 3:09 PM


Re: Well,I've held back on this for quite awhile...
jar writes:

One of the more important things that can be learned from the Bible is an intimation of the Points of View, culture and society of those living when the various books were written. John was written during a major schism within the Jewish community. It reflects the beginnings of a Christian Church as something other than a Jewish Sect and a backlash against the rest of the Jewish community. It was an attempt by an author or authors to redefine the community that accepted Jesus as the Jewish Messiah and to distance that community from the rest of the Jewish communion.

The picture presented in John is totally different than found anywhere else and IMHO that was intentional. John was saying that the Gospels that preceded his were simply wrong, they gave the wrong message. He was trying to develop the franchise, to build brand recognition for Christianity.

Who is to say that GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen was not totally aware of the evolution of man and that the time had come to move on from Judaism as traditionally practiced? Additionally, I see no evidence that the author of John regarded the other Gospels as wrong. The Jews rejected the Messiah...He was a "failed Messiah" according to their logic, reason, and reality. What I am suggesting is that it was they as a people who failed...not Jesus.

jar writes:

If you look at Matthew 25 and then move over to John you find totally different viewpoints. John is far more strident, more militantly Christian and anti-semetic than any of the other Gospels except a few such as found in the Egerton Gospel.

I have not studied this Egerton Gospel...I will have to check it out. I DO know that you have always had a fondness(and bias) towards Matthew 25 as a central core teaching regarding expected Christian(or human) behavior. You have argued that as the "woo" factor went up, the expectation of personal responsibility went down. I disagree---I maintain that John is only teaching us that we need to move beyond Doing For God and others. We need to commune with God. You no doubt will ask me how we are to do this. Once you get beyond the idea of an unknowable GOD and the idea that God likely doesnt care whether we even worship or acknowledge Her, you may begin to see the light. Additionally you have to get over your blanket disdain for the Chapters of Club Christian who teach that Jesus helps us. Communion is not abdication of personal responsibility---rather it enhances it.

jar writes:

John has a different take. For example, the contention that salvation must come through the acknowledgement of Jesus is totally contrary to the other Gospels and meant to exclude the Jewish community.

The Jewish community excluded Jesus. They failed their Messiah...He did not fail them.

jar writes:

The point is that among the books of the Bible, what is the message?

Agreed. What is the message, jar? Is GOD really unconcerned with communion with humanity? Are we really to try and do our best without regard of whether God is in us, around us or among us? Are we our own gods?

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 12-10-2004 3:09 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by jar, posted 01-25-2015 11:00 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29364
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 203 of 215 (748385)
01-25-2015 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Phat
01-25-2015 10:47 AM


Re: Well,I've held back on this for quite awhile...
Phat writes:

Who is to say that GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen was not totally aware of the evolution of man and that the time had come to move on from Judaism as traditionally practiced? Additionally, I see no evidence that the author of John regarded the other Gospels as wrong. The Jews rejected the Messiah...He was a "failed Messiah" according to their logic, reason, and reality. What I am suggesting is that it was they as a people who failed...not Jesus.

Then why does the author of John paint a totally different picture of Jesus.

Look at the miracles. In all of the synoptic gospels Jesus performs miracles because something needs to be done. It is NOT done as evidence of Jesus divinity but just cause folk need to be fed, a child needs to be healed, the party is running out of booze. In John though miracles are performed solely as evidence of divinity.

Phat writes:

I disagree---I maintain that John is only teaching us that we need to move beyond Doing For God and others. We need to commune with God. You no doubt will ask me how we are to do this. Once you get beyond the idea of an unknowable GOD and the idea that God likely doesnt care whether we even worship or acknowledge Her, you may begin to see the light. Additionally you have to get over your blanket disdain for the Chapters of Club Christian who teach that Jesus helps us. Communion is not abdication of personal responsibility---rather it enhances it.

Yet you never explain how anyone can commune with God.

Phat writes:

The Jewish community excluded Jesus. They failed their Messiah...He did not fail them.

That's just a stupid statement Phat. How the hell can anyone fail a messiah?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 13644
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 204 of 215 (748399)
01-25-2015 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Phat
01-25-2015 10:31 AM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
Phat writes:

How do we know that man invented words?


Who else needs them?
This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 29364
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 205 of 215 (748400)
01-25-2015 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by ringo
01-25-2015 1:24 PM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
and does the word for the same object vary from language to language?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by ringo, posted 01-25-2015 1:24 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 206 of 215 (748418)
01-25-2015 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by jar
01-25-2015 11:00 AM


Re: Well,I've held back on this for quite awhile...
... the party is running out of booze.

That's in the synoptic gospels?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by jar, posted 01-25-2015 11:00 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by jar, posted 01-25-2015 7:35 PM Jon has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29364
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 207 of 215 (748419)
01-25-2015 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Jon
01-25-2015 7:28 PM


Re: Well,I've held back on this for quite awhile...
Nope, in John. But an example of doing just because it needed doing without taking credit or using it to show that Jesus was divine.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Jon, posted 01-25-2015 7:28 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Jon, posted 01-25-2015 9:03 PM jar has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 208 of 215 (748424)
01-25-2015 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by jar
01-25-2015 7:35 PM


Re: Well,I've held back on this for quite awhile...
Nope, in John. But an example of doing just because it needed doing without taking credit or using it to show that Jesus was divine.

But it's specifically mentioned as the "first of his signs" through which he "revealed his glory" (Jn 2:11).


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by jar, posted 01-25-2015 7:35 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by jar, posted 01-25-2015 9:22 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29364
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 209 of 215 (748425)
01-25-2015 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Jon
01-25-2015 9:03 PM


Re: Well,I've held back on this for quite awhile...
Exactly, John places the emphasis on Jesus showing off. The story itself though has Jesus not taking credit.

The point is how John places the emphasis. It is not what Jesus does but how John frames the tales.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Jon, posted 01-25-2015 9:03 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 266 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 210 of 215 (748431)
01-25-2015 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Phat
01-25-2015 10:31 AM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
Phat writes:

Jar and I are touching on John now in another thread.

holy necropost, phat. you replied to a message that was nine years old.


This message is a reply to:
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