Evidence for God

Which prophet is said to have written The Book of Judges?Edited by Brian, : spellin

This isn't necessarily what the Tanakh says though.

Many Rabbis translate 'eleph' in different ways, and for very good reasons.To make the Bible claim that 600 000 man of fighting age left Egypt makes the Bible historically inaccurate.Any luck with the name of the prophet who wrote the Book of Judges?

Such as........?

Being pedantic here but their writings are only a little over 2000 years, abd all of them are anonymous.I dare say that there did exist at one time older writings but we have no way of knowing how simmilar/different they were from the DSS.

Your evidence that Samuel wrote Judges is what exactly?

You have just proved my point.We don't know who wrote ANY of the books on the Tanakh, this is a fact.But there are many clues within the text that demonstrates that most of the books are the product of more than one person and have been edited and redacted many times. You would be more accurate if you said that it is BELIEVED that Samuel wrote the book of Judges, and that the Talmud also CLAIMS that he did, although the Talmud is just basically parroting the Tanakh and is in no way a critical analysis of anything.Tradition is a wonderful thing, but all it proves is that there is a tradition, nothing else.Using one fairytale book to support another fairytale book really isn't that convincing an argument.

Actually, what I have proven is that you cannot prove who wrote any book in the entire world. because we know who wrote the books. Bit of a contradiction there OM. Yep, and testimony and tradition dictated that The Donation of Constantine was genuine.Testimony and tradition go for nothing, especially in the ancient world, and especially so in a very unreliable book.Text pointing to unknown authors really is all you have anyway, but we do know that the Tanakh is rife with anachronisms and this is just one way that proves that many verses were later additions.Another fine way of proving later additions is to look at disjointed texts and remove them to leave a nice flowing text on the page.Finally, the many conflicting copies of the same books that have been discovered demonstrate the unreliability of the Hebrew Bible.Edited by Brian, : No reason given.

So why are you climing that you know who wrote any book in the Bible?Also, I have never stated that the author of a book can be conclusively proven. My whole point is that we cannot know for certain, yet you claim that you do. Okay.A wee simple one to begin:'Tradition' states that Moses wrote the Torah, however he could NOT have written this:Genesis 14:14 When Abram heard that his relative had been taken captive, he called out the 318 trained men born in his household and went in pursuit as far as Dan.How could Moses have possibly mentioned Dan when it wasn't called Dan during Moses' time?

And if we examine this number the only conclusion is that it shows the tradition to be inaccurate. Since the 600 000 is a fantasy number it casts doubt on the accuracy of this event.In the Book of Numbers 3:42-43 we are told: So Moses counted all the firstborn of the Israelites, as the LORD commanded him. The total number of firstborn males a month old or more, listed by name, was 22,273. How can we take this seriously when, Gray ((1903) A critical and exegetical commentary on Numbers, Edinburgh : T. & T. Clark) informs us that: The unreality of the numbers is independently proved by comparing them with one another. Thus: the number of male firstborn is 22 273, allowing the number of female firstborn to be equal, the total number of firstborn is 44 546, and, therefore, the total number of Israelites being between 2,000,000 and 2,500,000, the average number of children to a family is about 50! Again, if, as is probable, the firstborn of the mother is intended (cp3:12), then, since the number of firstborn and of mothers must have been identical, there were 44,456 mothers: but the number of women being approximately the same as of men, the women over 20 numbered something over 600,000, and therefore only about 1 in 14 or 15 women over twenty were mothers! (page:13)There’s more internal evidence to suggest that the 2-3 million of the Exodus group is artificial. Current estimates of the population of Canaan at the time of the Exodus are well below three million. Exod. 23:29 and Deut. 7:7, 17, 22 indicate that the Israelites were far fewer in number than the Canaanite population that they were to conquer ( Ashley, T. R. (1993). The book of Numbers. Grand Rapids, Mich., William B. Eerdmans. pp.60-61) Yes, valid evidence that the Torah is a work of fiction.

Then by YOUR criteria EVERY historical event is true!You need external evidence to support an historical claim, you cannot just accept any old nonsense because it is a written testimony.And there is no such thing as conclusive proof in the discipline of ancient history. Not at all. I always question everything I read, I even criticise my ex-lecturers if I find something that I don't think fits the evidence.But history is only degrees of plausibility, it is never proven, just as a scientific theory is never proven. Historical theories are just the best explanation for the evidence available, and they have to be able to falsify a historians claim. The quality of evidence for WWI is of a significantly higher quality than the old torah. But NO other events are accepted in the manner that you claim. No historian would ever accept that an event is true without supporting evidence, especially when the claims made are so fantastic and smack of mythology and folklore.You don't seriously think that historians think that there was a worldwide flood based solely on the stories in the Tanakh do you? Because it was called Laish. The Book of Judges claims it was called somehtng else.18:29 They named it Dan after their forefather Dan, who was born to Israel”though the city used to be called Laish.So we know it was called Laish before it was called Dan, thus Moses did not write about dan and your book has been edited. Well we need to assume that it was since 'Samuel' says it was. The verse is not even prophetic. This is just part of the problem though when your earliest source is removed by over a thousand years from some of the events it describes. If any 'prophecised' event occured after we had a written text to examine it would make the case stronger. But, as it is, the earliest texts are the DSS, over a thousand years after Moses died, if he existed that is. Yes, it was concluded a very long time ago that this is just one of many anachronisms contained in the Torah.

Sorry, it is YOUR job to support YOUR cliams. This has no bearing on the argument, plus I am not aware that Jewish people had many wives. Can you provide proof that they did? Reference please. You don't get off that easy. I'm not a fundy braindead Christian you know.So let's see you support something for a little change.

This only 'kills' YOUR claim that: The Jewish people had many wives Deuteronomy 21:15 If a man has two wives This undermines your claim on two accounts.Firstly, 'two' wives is hardly 'many' is it?Secondly, the passage says 'if', which negates your claim that 'The Jewish people had many wives'. This passage tells us that some didn't have two wives and none had more than two.So try again. That's good.Meantime, another fundy posted this link, which is an article by Jacob Gebhart of The Hebrew Research Centre who is embarrassed about the number of people that Exodus suggests came out of Egypt.You will notice that he claims that The average number of children born to the descendents of Yaacov is three to five. This does seem to conflict with your claim.Edited by Brian, : added sub heading

It really doesn't mater whether it says 'if' or 'when', both result in the same argument.This verse is explaning what should happen 'if' or 'when' this situation occurs, in no way does it suggest that all Hebrew men had two wives. But it still doesnt suggest that all Hebrew men had two wives. Two can be two, not nineteen or seven or five.I must say I thought fundy Christians were bad for clinging to straws but you take the biscuit. I never said they couldn't have more than one wife, I said there's no need to assume that EVERY man had two wives. But it is at least hinted at. 7 or 8 I'd say off the top of my head, but David 'lived' long after Deuteronomy was supposed to be written. You mean by referring to the Bible???? I wish you had studied it, we could have a fairly decent discusion if you opened your mind a bit and stopped acting like a crazy fundy literalist Christians.

You are the one claiming that they did, and you name ONE man as an example.You are the one making the positive claim so let’s see. It makes no difference to the absurdity of the claim, try thinking about it. I know the reason given by the authors of Exodus, I also know that this is a number that has been shown to be absurd for the time and place. We also know that the 600 000 gives a Hebrew population in Egypt of 2-3 million Now to anyone with even the most basic grasp of ancient near eastern history knows that this number is inaccurate, science, archaeology, history, and common sense have shown that we need to reinterpret what the Book of Exodus says about the population because it is absurd to accept 2-3 million based on the evidence. No, it indicates that the authors of this folk tale gave a reason for the Exodus.Outside of the Book of Exodus, the Hebrews in Egypt are invisible in history. This makes your claim even more absurd then. Why would they have to marry?Did all the different gods they worshipped really insist on marriage? Do you expect the authors to name the 2-3 million in the Exodus group because I didn’t? But everything we know does indeed point to it being a story book, a fairystory book in fact. Everything mentioned in every book has a purpose. This is not what I said though. I have never stated that some Jewish people mentioned in the Tanakh didn’t have more than one wife, you are imagining this.What I did say regarding this verse is that it refers to men with TWO wives, one they love and one they hate, one plus one is two, not MANY as you would wish it to be.One plus one = two.

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Please give me your source for this.

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Well, I’ll give you a few, take a couple of days to chew them over because I have an important assignment to complete for Friday.First off, the Adam and Eve folk tale tells us that the first marriage was intended as monogamous.Genesis 2:24For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.United to his wife , singular. So a real opportunity for old Yahweh there to lay out the polygamous ideal if he wanted to.I’ll give another 3 then we can argue over these towards the end of the week.Even one of the Commandments insists that monogamy is expected:Exodus 20:17 [i] "You shall not covet your neighbour’s house. You shall not covet your neighbour’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour."So, another monogamy hint, and a nice little dose of sexism to boot.Leviticus 20:10 And a man who commits adultery with a man's wife -- who commits adultery with the wife of his neighbour -- the adulterer and the adulteress are surely put to death. The wife of his neighbour, NOT one of his neighbours wives.Numbers 5:12 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ”If any man’s wife goes astray and behaves unfaithfully toward him.
Singular again. NOT one of a man’s wives.Proverbs 18:22 He who finds a wife finds a good thing, And obtains favour from the LORD. Again, singular and NOT finds ”wives’.I’ll post more if you wish, but these are sufficient to prove my point to any slightly objective observer. But I look forward to your rebuttals and rewording of the Torah, as you will surely do. Well there’s two bits of paper on my wall from two unis that disagree with you, so I’ll stick with the people who know what they are talking about. There’s so many.Here’s an obvious one from the Book of Judges that we chatted about here before.The reign of a Judge follows a prescribed formula.If we look at some of these we can see that how it goes.Israel doing evilYahweh is angryThen Yahweh delivers them into the hands of their enemies.Then they repent.Yahweh raises up a Judge.Yahweh helps Judge conquer enemies.Peace in the land.Statement of how many years of peace.Death of Judge.Israel does evil, yada, yada, yada . . ..Quotes all from Judges obviously.3:7 [i] So the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD . .3:8 [i] Therefore the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel, and He sold them into the hand of Cushan-Rishathaim king of Mesopotamia3:9 When the children of Israel cried out to the LORD, the LORD raised up a deliverer for the children of Israel, who delivered them: Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb’s younger brother. 3:10 . .. He went out to war, and the LORD delivered Cushan-Rishathaim king of Mesopotamia into his hand; . . 3:11 So the land had rest for forty years. Then Othniel the son of Kenaz died. /The reigns of the Judges all follow a similar formula.But the interesting interpolation can be found at the end of Judges 3 and at the beginning of Judges 4.Obviously these passages were not originally put into chapter and verses, the Christians took it upon themselves to mutilate the Tanakh in this way, but it helps for referencing.If we notice that when Othniel died, the children of Israel immediately did evil in the sight of Yahweh.3:11-12a 11 So the land had rest for forty years. Then Othniel the son of Kenaz died. And the children of Israel again did evil in the sight of the LORD. This led to the Israelites being conquered by Eglon the Moabite, and we can see a repeat of the formula 12b-15 So the LORD strengthened Eglon king of Moab against Israel, because they had done evil in the sight of the LORD. Then he gathered to himself the people of Ammon and Amalek, went and defeated Israel, and took possession of the City of Palms. So the children of Israel served Eglon king of Moab eighteen years.
But when the children of Israel cried out to the LORD, the LORD raised up a deliverer for them But it is when we get to the end of Ehud’s reign, the part between chapters 3 and 4 that the interpolation is obvious.If we look at it as it appears we read:3:30-4:1 So Moab was subdued that day under the hand of Israel. And the land had rest for eighty years.
After him was Shamgar the son of Anath, who killed six hundred men of the Philistines with an ox goad; and he also delivered Israel.
When Ehud was dead, the children of Israel again did evil in the sight of the LORD. The mention of Shamgar is out of place here, the text is horribly disjointed with it, and if we remove it we have: So Moab was subdued that day under the hand of Israel. And the land had rest for eighty years. When Ehud was dead, the children of Israel again did evil in the sight of the LORD. The text reads much smoother without the removal of 3:31.Just to reinforce the point we can look at more Judges and their
formula.Just to recap we had Othniel: So the land had rest for forty years. Then Othniel the son of Kenaz died. And the children of Israel again did evil in the sight of the LORD. Then we have Deborah.Judges 5 is the Song of Deborah, and after the song (and into chapter 6) we are told: So the land had rest for forty years. Then the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD. So the LORD delivered them into the hand of Midian for seven years, Then we have wee Gideon: Now Gideon the son of Joash died at a good old age, and was buried in the tomb of Joash his father, in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.

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So it was, as soon as Gideon was dead, that the children of Israel again played the harlot with the Baals, and made Baal-Berith their god. So, the formula is broken by Shamgar, and not only that, Shamgar is not even treated in the same way as the other Judges.The Shamgar interpolation is a very famous one, and it is just one of many well-known additions. I don’t have a problem with Judaism. I enjoy studying the tanakh so much that my masters is related to it, albeit in historical rather than a theological context. Well there are answers and there are answers. Anyone who has read the garbage that Christian apologists write when they try to make Jesus into the Messiah that He clearly wasn’t knows that not all answers are satisfactory.Edited by Brian, : formatting