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Author Topic:   Did Adam and eve really have a choice?
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 136 of 219 (248481)
10-03-2005 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by iano
10-03-2005 9:47 AM


Re: We meet again
Adam and Eve weren't infants.
Compared to God they were. they also had no knowledge of good and evil.
1)Adam and Eve would have known they were not God. That they were 'lesser' beings than God
Irrelevent!
2)Adam and Eve were told by God they would die
And exactly what do you think they understood of death at this point? To someone who has never lost a loved one to death this is a pretty meaningless concept.
God might just as well have said "If you eat of the fruit then you shall surely jkhxjthjfv"
And anyway, this is all beside the point if God knew exactly which choice was going to be made prior to creating the universe in the first place. History was going to play out in a specific way and there was nothing that anybody could do about it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 9:47 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 1:14 PM PurpleYouko has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 137 of 219 (248536)
10-03-2005 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Asgara
10-03-2005 10:11 AM


Re: We meet again
Asgara writes:
Of course the Satan character can't be blamed, he isn't even part of the story.
Who is the person referred to in Genesis 3:15, the offspring of the woman who will crush the serpents head and whose heel the serpent will bruise. (Hint: God had a plan of salvation then). Whose goose was cooked on the cross (Hint: it wasn't Jesus)

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Asgara, posted 10-03-2005 10:11 AM Asgara has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by PurpleYouko, posted 10-03-2005 1:33 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 138 of 219 (248538)
10-03-2005 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by PurpleYouko
10-03-2005 10:27 AM


Re: We meet again
PurpleYouko writes:
Compared to God they were. they also had no knowledge of good and evil.
Compared to God we are all infants in our understanding. Which would imply the choices you make aren't choice either. It's not a question of absolute God-like choice it whether there is sufficient choice for God to fulfill his plan.
If your playing poker you play with 4 aces in the deck. You play within the confines of the game. 200 aces might make for a differnt game but poker says 4 aces are sufficient. Sufficient choice you have. Sufficient choice they had. God says you have sufficient choice. Otherwise he could not condemn you. He wouldn't be just.
If 'die' = sepiofuasefopi then why not 'eat' = \epiofjasopfij and 'day' = fweoifhwefioj. In other words Adam and Eve had no concept of any words God used. That's nonsense...

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by PurpleYouko, posted 10-03-2005 10:27 AM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by PurpleYouko, posted 10-03-2005 1:27 PM iano has replied
 Message 141 by Heathen, posted 10-03-2005 1:59 PM iano has not replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 139 of 219 (248545)
10-03-2005 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by iano
10-03-2005 1:14 PM


Re: We meet again
If 'die' = sepiofuasefopi then why not 'eat' = \epiofjasopfij and 'day' = fweoifhwefioj. In other words Adam and Eve had no concept of any words God used. That's nonsense...
No. Only your eat analogy is nonsense. A&E knew perfectly well how to eat, what it meant to eat and every concievable part of the concept of eating. they did it all the time.
However thay did NOT know how to die. Nobody they knew had died. How could they possibly understand what "to die" meant?
Besides this, you still haven't shown me any way in which any decision that they made would have had a shread of effect on the outcome anyway since God knew from the start that they would "fall".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 1:14 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 2:24 PM PurpleYouko has replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 140 of 219 (248547)
10-03-2005 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by iano
10-03-2005 1:03 PM


Re: We meet again
Who is the person referred to in Genesis 3:15, the offspring of the woman who will crush the serpents head and whose heel the serpent will bruise. (Hint: God had a plan of salvation then). Whose goose was cooked on the cross (Hint: it wasn't Jesus)
Why did God NEED a plan of salvation?
Was (is) he not All-Powerfull?
Could he not just have said "That's all right Adam. Don't do it again. Just to remind you to behave in future here is a really bad belly ache for a day or two."
But no! He had to punish the entire Human race for a thousand generations. Not only that but he set some stupid assed scheme in motion which involved having his son crucified a couple thousand years in the future.
If God was truly all powerfull AND all-loving AND all-knowing then he would have done it some other way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 1:03 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 2:31 PM PurpleYouko has replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1284 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 141 of 219 (248561)
10-03-2005 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by iano
10-03-2005 1:14 PM


Re: We meet again
iano writes:
If your playing poker you play with 4 aces in the deck. You play within the confines of the game. 200 aces might make for a differnt game but poker says 4 aces are sufficient. Sufficient choice you have. Sufficient choice they had. God says you have sufficient choice. Otherwise he could not condemn you. He wouldn't be just.
If in doubt analogise until your far off the point and hopefully people won't notice you're backed tightly in a corner.
You don't choose what cards you're dealt. they come out in the order they sit.
So God says we have sufficient choice? sufficient for what? to fullfil his masterplan of damning man to hell? and causing untold suffering?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 1:14 PM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 142 of 219 (248572)
10-03-2005 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by PurpleYouko
10-03-2005 1:27 PM


Re: We meet again
PurpleYouko writes:
No. Only your eat analogy is nonsense. A&E knew perfectly well how to eat, what it meant to eat and every concievable part of the concept of eating. they did it all the time.
Besides the fact that someone had to put it into them the idea of eating when designing them, they also had to be told that this action was described by the word 'eat' How did they know the meaning of the word. God used the word 'surely' What experience had they of 'unsure' before that? Or was that another word which meant nothing
Besides this, you still haven't shown me any way in which any decision that they made would have had a shread of effect on the outcome anyway since God knew from the start that they would "fall".
And you still haven't shown how Gods foreknowledge affects sufficient choice by man. How can you know what is possible with God? Your (human) understanding of what is and isn't possible is not the limit of what is and isn't possible with God. Or maybe you disagree...

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by PurpleYouko, posted 10-03-2005 1:27 PM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Heathen, posted 10-03-2005 3:21 PM iano has replied
 Message 151 by PurpleYouko, posted 10-03-2005 4:55 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 143 of 219 (248574)
10-03-2005 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by PurpleYouko
10-03-2005 1:33 PM


Re: We meet again
PurpleYouko writes:
Could he not just have said "That's all right Adam. Don't do it again. Just to remind you to behave in future here is a really bad belly ache for a day or two."
Your underestimating the seriousness of sin. A belly ache is the wages of eating a dodgy curry. The wages of sin is death. God decides the wages. No point in arguing. Sin is serious.
But no! He had to punish the entire Human race for a thousand generations. Not only that but he set some stupid assed scheme in motion which involved having his son crucified a couple thousand years in the future.
You have an appreciation of the world around you. What you cannot say (and keep a straight face) is that God is stupid. There is too much around to suggest otherwise.
If God was truly all powerfull AND all-loving AND all-knowing then he would have done it some other way.
I don't see how he could seeing what he was playing for. Not even God can make a creature who will love him freely but who has no free will. That's simply illogical not a lack of omnipotence

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by PurpleYouko, posted 10-03-2005 1:33 PM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by PurpleYouko, posted 10-03-2005 5:03 PM iano has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 144 of 219 (248576)
10-03-2005 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by iano
09-29-2005 12:43 PM


Re: We meet again
quote:
God is infallible. He never makes a mistake.
I thought that the reason God murdered every living thing in The Flood was because He wasn't pleased with what He had created (except for Noah and his family), and he needed to start all over again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by iano, posted 09-29-2005 12:43 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 4:49 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 145 of 219 (248577)
10-03-2005 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by iano
09-29-2005 12:43 PM


Re: We meet again
quote:
What would you have him do. Create automatons?
How do you know God hasn't created automatons who only believe they have free will?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by iano, posted 09-29-2005 12:43 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 4:53 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 146 of 219 (248579)
10-03-2005 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by iano
09-29-2005 12:13 PM


Re: We meet again - (I sure hope it will be up there)
quote:
The article demonstrates why it's called Quantum theory, not Quantum fact...
There's also Gravitational Theory.
Do you disagree that there is a force called "gravity" that can also be demonstrated to be a fact as?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by iano, posted 09-29-2005 12:13 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 4:57 AM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 147 of 219 (248588)
10-03-2005 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Faith
09-30-2005 2:58 PM


Re: He chose this reality, not us
quote:
A Christian starts out trying to show the human need for a Savior and soon encounters all these objections to God's allowing sin at all instead of gratitude that a way out is offered. It's a strange conversation. I think I will try to avoid it in future.
If one follows your viewpoint back to it's logical conclusion, that is where it leads.
If your portrayal of God is correct, then god isn't some big hero for "offering a way out", because he put us in this terrible situation Himself, on purpose, knowing it would cause us immense suffering.
God needlessly set up humanity to fail, like rats in a science experiments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Faith, posted 09-30-2005 2:58 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Phat, posted 10-03-2005 3:11 PM nator has not replied
 Message 153 by Funkaloyd, posted 10-03-2005 9:20 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 148 of 219 (248590)
10-03-2005 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Funkaloyd
10-01-2005 9:35 AM


Re: We meet again
quote:
I should think that not many are readily able to accept the possibility that God isn't benevolent
I don't see why not.
That was the view of God that the Early Hebrews had.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Funkaloyd, posted 10-01-2005 9:35 AM Funkaloyd has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 149 of 219 (248592)
10-03-2005 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by nator
10-03-2005 3:00 PM


Re: He chose this reality, not us
Schraff writes:
God needlessly set up humanity to fail, like rats in a science experiments.
So do we swim upstream and beat the odds?
Or are we set up to succeed?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by nator, posted 10-03-2005 3:00 PM nator has not replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1284 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 150 of 219 (248596)
10-03-2005 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by iano
10-03-2005 2:24 PM


Re: We meet again
iano writes:
And you still haven't shown how Gods foreknowledge affects sufficient choice by man
this is fast becoming pointless and fruitless.
creavolution writes:
and I've said a few times earlier... it's not so much that foreknowledge 'influences' the choice, but the creation of the environment, the situation, the person making the choice. God created all these so he had total influence on the choice. The mere fact that the choice is foreknown, to me, indicates that there is only one outcome, that there is no alternative, i.e. that there is no choice.
creavolution writes:
what I'm saying (again and again) God created ALL the circumstances to such a degree that he knew what the outcome would be.
Please answer me. WHERE IS THE CHOICE HERE?
creavolution writes:
God created ALL the circumstances to such a degree that he knew what the outcome would be. This would suggest there was only one outcome, no alternative. Thus no real choice.
etcetera etcetera etcetera.......

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 2:24 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 5:10 AM Heathen has not replied
 Message 164 by Phat, posted 10-04-2005 10:01 AM Heathen has replied

  
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