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Author Topic:   Debate on 5 Non-Biblical arguments for the existence of God
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 31 of 49 (147705)
10-06-2004 1:59 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by almeyda
10-06-2004 1:21 AM


There is no morality among the animal kingdom.
Sure there is. Social animals regularly engage in behaviors that are personally detrimental but beneficial to the group.
Scientist know that there had to be one language at the beginning.
Says who?
Belief in a deity is not common among any animal except human beings. Why?
Because other animals don't have the language capacity to make up myths?
Humans can develop an argument, follow a line of logic, draw conclusions and frame hypotheses.
Except for creationists, that seems to be true. It's a pity more humans don't do this, though.
The reason why humans are so different from animals is because we are created in the image of God.
I'd say you have it backwards. We made up God in our own image.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by almeyda, posted 10-06-2004 1:21 AM almeyda has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 32 of 49 (147706)
10-06-2004 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Gastric ReFlux
10-05-2004 1:54 PM


It's rather frustrating to hear the morality argument trotted out when animal species demonstrate a moral sense
I wouldn't say that they exhibit a moral sense, because I don't believe that there is such a thing.
But animals exhibit many of the same social behaviors we do; behaviors that, when humans do them, we say stems from "morality." I say, it's all kin selection, humans or animals.

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 Message 24 by Gastric ReFlux, posted 10-05-2004 1:54 PM Gastric ReFlux has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 33 of 49 (147707)
10-06-2004 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by General Nazort
10-05-2004 2:32 PM


Just a quick comment about infinite regression - the law of causality is that every effect must have a cause, not that everything must have a cause.
How d you identify which things are effects, and which are not, without committing circular reasoning like you did in the other thread?

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happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 34 of 49 (151451)
10-20-2004 9:14 PM


As far as the beginning of the universe and causation is concerned, I don't see any logical way that the universe could have a cause. To the best of our understanding t0 equals the point of the big bang. That would mean that the phrase "before the big bang" would have no meaning, just like the phrase "north of the north pole" has no meaning. If there is no event before the big bang, there can be no cause to the big bang. Can two events that aren't seperated temporally have a causal relationship? If so, how do you determine which one is the cause and which one is the effect? It seems to be impossible to me. The universe seems to be a prime candidate for a causless entity, why posit another unsupported one before it just to satisfy a religious need?

Replies to this message:
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tsig
Member (Idle past 2909 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 35 of 49 (151491)
10-20-2004 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by almeyda
10-06-2004 1:21 AM


defense of pond scum
Please refrain from accusing pond scum of giving rise to humans, we rensent the charge.

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 Message 30 by almeyda, posted 10-06-2004 1:21 AM almeyda has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 36 of 49 (153891)
10-28-2004 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Zhimbo
09-29-2004 11:21 PM


Re: Arguments
I find that one ineresting also.
I always used to ask myself, who created God? Where did he come from?
But for some strange reason we almost feel like we don't have the right to even ask the question.
When you start to ponder on it, your head feels like its going to explode. I just shake my head and say it had to have come from somewhere. What was it? It was just always there, the Universe, continually expanding and collapsing? What purpose does it serve?
What's outside the big bubble right before it reverses direction and collapses, if it even collapses.
Great, I got a headache now.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by contracycle, posted 10-29-2004 8:11 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 46 by tsig, posted 10-29-2004 8:21 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 37 of 49 (153892)
10-28-2004 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by happy_atheist
10-20-2004 9:14 PM


Cause you don't know why we are here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by happy_atheist, posted 10-20-2004 9:14 PM happy_atheist has not replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 49 (154054)
10-29-2004 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by riVeRraT
10-28-2004 9:16 PM


Re: Arguments
quote:
But for some strange reason we almost feel like we don't have the right to even ask the question.
YOU don't, I certainly do.
God is a lie that thieves use to justify their theft.
quote:
What was it? It was just always there, the Universe, continually expanding and collapsing? What purpose does it serve?
Well, M-theory would suggest the universe is a zone of interaction between two 'membranes' in a kind of extra-universal space.
That at least is a constructive and purposeful answer, even if it is wrong. Merely resorting to "its hard and confising" is not. Furthermore, your sense that you do not have the "right" to ask this question demonstrates only the fact that religion tries to suppress thought.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by riVeRraT, posted 10-28-2004 9:16 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by riVeRraT, posted 10-29-2004 10:19 AM contracycle has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 39 of 49 (154086)
10-29-2004 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by contracycle
10-29-2004 8:11 AM


Re: Arguments
God is a lie that thieves use to justify their theft.
Woa!!!
Care to re-think that statement, because you are going to have to prove it now.
Well, M-theory would suggest the universe is a zone of interaction between two 'membranes' in a kind of extra-universal space.
Brilliant!
That at least is a constructive and purposeful answer, even if it is wrong. Merely resorting to "its hard and confising" is not. Furthermore, your sense that you do not have the "right" to ask this question demonstrates only the fact that religion tries to suppress thought.
No it demostrates that I know my place in life and the Universe, and just how small I am compared to it. I still have asked the question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by contracycle, posted 10-29-2004 8:11 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by contracycle, posted 10-29-2004 10:50 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 41 by ramoss, posted 10-29-2004 11:10 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 49 (154098)
10-29-2004 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by riVeRraT
10-29-2004 10:19 AM


Re: Arguments
quote:
No it demostrates that I know my place in life and the Universe, and just how small I am compared to it. I still have asked the question.
No, it does not - because you insist on being the centre of attention of some super-dimensional entity. In fact, you think the whole universe was created just for you, and other humans.
You fail to realise how trivial our existance is even when set against something as small as, say, jupiter, let alone the whole universe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by riVeRraT, posted 10-29-2004 10:19 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by riVeRraT, posted 10-29-2004 11:34 AM contracycle has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 41 of 49 (154107)
10-29-2004 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by riVeRraT
10-29-2004 10:19 AM


Re: Arguments
while I think it might be a bit over generalised, I have one word
televangists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by riVeRraT, posted 10-29-2004 10:19 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by riVeRraT, posted 10-29-2004 11:36 AM ramoss has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 42 of 49 (154120)
10-29-2004 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by contracycle
10-29-2004 10:50 AM


Re: Arguments
BOING!!!
You are the word twister extreme.
riverrat writes:
I know my place in life and the Universe, and just how small I am compared to it.
You write:
you insist on being the centre of attention of some super-dimensional entity. In fact, you think the whole universe was created just for you, and other humans.
How'd you get that from what I wrote?
I think I know, but lets hear your side.
I think what I stated is pretty clear, unless you are calling me a liar. If so, then I have nothing more to say to you, but I will pray for you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by contracycle, posted 10-29-2004 10:50 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by contracycle, posted 10-29-2004 11:43 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 43 of 49 (154122)
10-29-2004 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by ramoss
10-29-2004 11:10 AM


Re: Arguments
Well, that doesn't make a God a liar now does it?
BTW, I am happy that you reconize that some or most of these TV dudes are full of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by ramoss, posted 10-29-2004 11:10 AM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by ramoss, posted 10-31-2004 9:39 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 49 by coffee_addict, posted 11-01-2004 1:52 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 49 (154125)
10-29-2004 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by riVeRraT
10-29-2004 11:34 AM


Re: Arguments
Firstly: " but I will pray for you."
Don't you dare.
quote:
How'd you get that from what I wrote?
I think I know, but lets hear your side.
Are you not the special creation of god, brought into being to praise god, and so loved by god that he sacrificed his only begotten son to save you from sin?
That's pretty damn arrogant and self-important. This is a primary aspect of theism, the delusion that humans are in some way important or meaningful to the universe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by riVeRraT, posted 10-29-2004 11:34 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by riVeRraT, posted 10-29-2004 12:29 PM contracycle has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 45 of 49 (154141)
10-29-2004 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by contracycle
10-29-2004 11:43 AM


Re: Arguments
I guess you want to stop me from praying, how cool.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by contracycle, posted 10-29-2004 11:43 AM contracycle has not replied

  
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