Where did God come from?

This is a chance for creationists to establish the origins of their beliefs. Please explain where the evidence is that you found for the originEdited my Adminnemooseus, to add the content below, which was what sidelined had intended to be the opening message (see sidelined's comments in message 6, below):This is a chance for creationists to establish the origins of their beliefs. Please explain where the evidence is that you found for the origin of God and the reason for this evidence convincing you.[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 12-12-2003]

God always was always is always will be. He is outside the loop of time. that is what i thinks.

I could mention scripture, or some of my ideas about that subject, but I think a different approach would be more interesting.Since people can't (all-convincingly) use scripture to defend His existence, I'm curious if anybody can disprove this higher power without pointing out faults in the Bible or other spiritual documents.------------------
Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

Hi Born2Preach,You are asking for someone to prove a negative. It would be like my asking you to disprove The Blessed Pink Unicorn, or as one poster here has said (paraphrased) prove that there isn't an invisible, intangible, purple baboon living in your colon.The proof is up to the one making the existential claim.To turn it back to you, maybe you could disprove the existence of Thor, Bast, Astarte, The Titans, or Wakan Tanka.------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

So, to you the presence of an omniscient all powerful being just happening to exist is completely realistic, but the concept of a random, basic set of rules just happening to exist (quite possibly, all basic sets existing) is illogical?If so, I've already got a wall picked out to bang my head into.------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

I am sorry but the post#1 I placed is again incomplete. Even after I edited to fill in the missing info I reposted and everything was fine and now I come back to find the post is cut in half again. If the admins could give me some idea whatsup I would appreciate it.Any way the post should have been.This is a chance for creationists to establish the origins of their beliefs. Please explain where the evidence is that you found for the origin of God and the reason for this evidence convincing you.I hope it works this time.-----A note by edit by Adminnemooseus - All I can guess, is that you did an edit, then clicked on the "Preview" button. After you looked at the "preview", you forgot to click on the "Submit Now" button. Then you exited out of the window, and ended up finding that you still had the same text as before your attempted edit. I may be wrong, but that's my guess.See message 1 - I added a paragraph, of all your intended text.[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 12-12-2003]

Asgara writes:

quote:

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You are asking for someone to prove a negative.

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That isn't necessarily a problem. Proving negatives can be done, but it requires a well-defined object that behaves in well-defined ways. For example, it is proven that there is no way to square the circle (construct a square with the same area as a given circle) using only a straightedge and compass. But, that's because we know what squares and circles are and what straightedges and compasses are capable of doing. Since they have constraints, it is possible to determine what the limits of their actions are and thus whether or not something is possible given those limits.Methinks we will never be able to agree on the definition of "god," so proving the non-existence of it will be exceedingly difficult. And, of course, certain definitions of "god" inherently make themselves indisputable. A god that can "do anything" can't be tested since every single outcome is consistent with "anything."------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Hi Rrhain,I've read your discussion of proving a negative in another thread. Unfortunately, I don't have a knowledgable basis with which to discuss this.I agree that disproving god would be very difficult. How do you disprove something for which there is no evidence, no set definition, and which can do anything and be anywhere?This brings me back to my question to Born2Preach, disprove the existance of Ahura Mazda, Zeus, Wakan Tanka, Krishna...(insert desired god)------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

You seek the most unfathomable, unwhispered secret of all existence. Any post that any person posts hereunder shall be a complete laughing stock. Who would be so vain as to say they know the origin of all originators?

You seek the most unfathomable, unwhispered secret of all existence. Any post that any person posts hereunder shall be a complete laughing stock. Who would be so vain as to say they know that an originator existed at all?Mark

ZET This is my point. We have people quite often attest to the nature of God and how he operates without explaining just where they get the information to make the conclusion. If they can speak to his abilities I do wonder why they cannot therefore make an attempt at explaining his origins.For example the phrase 'God has always existed' is a classic but does not offer one bit of information as to how the conclusion was arrived at.Why is it such a difficult thing to do?You see how all the debate of Biblical and deistic discourse is argued ad nauseum but the origin of God is never questioned?
Without a firm understanding of how to rectify this problem before we journey into Bibles or Korans then it is like building a house without checking to see if the soil will support it first.------------------
"Physics is like sex. Sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it."[This message has been edited by sidelined, 12-13-2003][This message has been edited by sidelined, 12-13-2003]

I agree with you sidelined, especially with the unstable foundation part; which is exactly why religions rise and fall. The truth is, people might have an idea about the nature of God, but at the same time his existence cannot be proven, and ideas on his origin would only be conjecture and wild theories. You're right, without that religion's are fallacies, but some people would still rather take that chance, "just in case" there is a God. HA! As if an existing God couldn't tell the difference of someone going through the motions and a true believer?

"Who would be so vain as to say they know that an originator existed at all?"And who would be so vain as to say they know for certain that an originator does not exist?You're not suggesting that everone in the world who believes in some sort of diety is full of vanity, are you?However, I'm not accusing anybody of anything with that question. "Believing", when used in spiritual terms, usually doesn't
mean "knowing". NOBODY really knows 100% for sure whether or not a higher power exists, because the proof of a creator is creation itself, however, as most athiests point out, the universe doesn't have anybody's name written on it.I really think both sides of this arguement should refrain from pointing fingers, because nobody argues well when they're pissed, and as such nobody learns anything.------------------
Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

TO ADMIN(s)LEASE DELETEno prob hun, deleting double post - the Queen[This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 12-13-2003][This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 12-13-2003][This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 12-13-2003]

"The proof is up to the one making the existential claim...To turn it back to you, maybe you could disprove the existence of Thor, Bast, Astarte, The Titans, or Wakan Tanka."Well, for starters the Titans were so big that they would've left fossils even from that long ago, and they probably ate so much you'd think they would've made everything else extinct, but if they were there first all they could eat were Cyclops(my greek mind is not strong)and... um, anyway. On to making a point.As for the proof, you're right, that's pretty hard to do but here it goes. I'll eliminate the obvious first for everyone's sake:Creation itself is both proof and disproof of a master creator in itself, so it cancels itself out as practically irrelevant.But how about this? Morality is to an extent proof of some form of higher existence. That's hard to explain on the draw, so I'll paraphrase(as breifly as possible) something I read awhile back that's similar to what I'm trying to explain.Right and wrong not as variables, but as facts.Slight variations may apply, but all of us have similar idea. That's peculiar.Example: If I was to walk over and bitch slap somebody I didn't know, I'm pretty sure most of you would agree I was being a jerk.Why is that? Simple instinct drilled into us? Elephants care about eachother.But that's as a pack. The man in question who is currently rubbing his face(or hitting me back) is probably in no direct relation to you, so why should you care about him?There seems to be a universal standard of right and wrong of which we're expected to follow. We don't always. It's not like the law of gravity, where when a ball is thrown in the air it comes down. We SHOULD obey this law, but we usually don't.If right and wrong is in the eye of the beholder, then I guess Nazism is a better concept than Christianity or Buddism. And why not? Nazism was promoting keeping(what was thought to be)only the best humans to continue the species. Survival of the fittest. So why is it that we don't consider that right?There must be a standard that, though it's not written down, is universally existant. It's not exactly Natural Law, though. Because really, we think chopping down too many trees is wrong because it wiped out species of animals. Natural instinct is to insure survival of your own race over somebody elses, so why should we care about the, say, spotted african penguin?And if we're to agree there is a standard, somebody had to make it up besides nature.(I believe that was from Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis, by the way.)I might edit this to be more elaborate later, but I've got some stuff to do. I'll be back probably tomorrow.------------------
Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.