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Author Topic:   Tell Him Jesus Sent You
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 46 of 61 (384900)
02-13-2007 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
02-13-2007 12:32 PM


Re: What would I say?
quote:
When the idea of a God who is neither able to be controlled, defined, measured or manipulated comes up, however, many people do not feel comfortable with such an idea. The idea that we owe allegiance or at least respect to such a Being rubs many people the wrong way.
I would say that religions and their dogma are an attempt to define, measure, manipulate, and control god.
The very idea that we owe any proposed god respect or allegience is nothing more than religious dogma, invented and used to control the followers of that religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 02-13-2007 12:32 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Phat, posted 02-13-2007 12:51 PM nator has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 47 of 61 (384901)
02-13-2007 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by riVeRraT
02-13-2007 9:07 AM


Re: What would I say?
RiverRat writes:
People say that in a room full of people, who are Spirit filled, you too can feel it. But there are some who don't feel a thing (I was one of them).
Phat writes:
I don't necessarily think that anyone can usually tell...but there have been times when the wisdom emanating from someone was unmistakably not theirs alone.
I guess I am confusing too many thoughts here, and I don't have the time to write them out today, but do you think we should preach the gospel? (not asking how). Or is it a waste of time? Do we even need the bible? Because the bible seems to be a big point of confusion. Not that the bible itself is confusing, but the people interpreting it are confused about it.
  • There is nothing wrong with sharing how good Jesus Christ makes you feel, but I think that in our zeal, many of us (especially born-again newbies) are too much talk and not enough action (or listen)
  • Do we need the Bible? Personally, I have found that I do not need it in order to be effective at sharing. It is useful at times, and without it I become too intellectual and puffed up....(with it too, sometimes though )
    Bottom line, for me...is personal integrity and consistency. If I find that I truly want to make a relationship with someone rather than sell a product, I have better relationships form that are more long lasting.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 37 by riVeRraT, posted 02-13-2007 9:07 AM riVeRraT has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 52 by riVeRraT, posted 02-14-2007 1:30 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 48 of 61 (384903)
    02-13-2007 12:51 PM
    Reply to: Message 46 by nator
    02-13-2007 12:45 PM


    Re: What would I say?
    Nator writes:
    The very idea that we owe any proposed god respect or allegiance is nothing more than religious dogma, invented and used to control the followers of that religion.
    So you are saying that Man creates God in his own image?
    What makes you so convinced that God exists and is like a patient though firm teacher, expecting you to come out of your comfort zones and open up to, if not embrace, an unmeasurable unverifiable faith concept?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 46 by nator, posted 02-13-2007 12:45 PM nator has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 50 by nator, posted 02-13-2007 12:59 PM Phat has not replied

      
    nator
    Member (Idle past 2169 days)
    Posts: 12961
    From: Ann Arbor
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    Message 49 of 61 (384904)
    02-13-2007 12:55 PM
    Reply to: Message 44 by Phat
    02-13-2007 12:41 PM


    Re: What would I say?
    quote:
    Before Copernicus, everyone thought that the cosmos spun around us.
    Not at all.
    There are some Vedic Sandscrit writings that indicate such ideas from the 7th century BCE, and the Greek, Aristarchus, had a heliocentric model in the 3rd century BCE (that was possibly based upon even earlier Islamic astronomy and math.
    As usual, only the Christian European history is remembered.
    quote:
    Before Christ, we as humans usually view ourselves as the center of attention.
    That is such crap, Phat!
    Do I really need to list all of the pre-Christ religions and cultures that considered humans to be part of nature, and tiny and insignificant in the Grand Scheme of Things?
    In fact, I would say that the rise of violent monotheistic religions such as Judaism tended to inflate humans as much more important that anything else on Earth, and one particular tribe of humans greater than everyone else.
    quote:
    Its hard to accept that the best laid plans of mice and men are dependent upon an active Deity.
    Yeah, especially when nothing at all about existence appears to be influenced by any active deity.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 44 by Phat, posted 02-13-2007 12:41 PM Phat has not replied

      
    nator
    Member (Idle past 2169 days)
    Posts: 12961
    From: Ann Arbor
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    Message 50 of 61 (384906)
    02-13-2007 12:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 48 by Phat
    02-13-2007 12:51 PM


    Re: What would I say?
    quote:
    So you are saying that Man creates God in his own image?
    I'd say that religions always do this.
    If gods are actually a creation of our minds, or are real, is unknowable.
    quote:
    What makes you so convinced that God exists and is like a patient though firm teacher, expecting you to come out of your comfort zones and open up to, if not embrace, an unmeasurable unverifiable faith concept?
    Can you please try to formulate this again? I can't make sense of it.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 48 by Phat, posted 02-13-2007 12:51 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Jon
    Inactive Member


    Message 51 of 61 (384925)
    02-13-2007 1:52 PM
    Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
    02-13-2007 12:32 PM


    Re: What would I say?
    When the idea of a God who is neither able to be controlled, defined, measured or manipulated comes up, however, many people do not feel comfortable with such an idea. The idea that we owe allegiance or at least respect to such a Being rubs many people the wrong way.
    I don't know about a lot of pholks here, but my desire not to follow God stems from not wanting to be controlled by a Bumbling Fool who creates and governs in a rather alcoholic manner. I mean, how many leaders do you think would allow their citizens to break laws, deny the government, set up their own governments, break free in large chunks from the main land masses of their countries, etc?
    Either He truly does not care--in which case I feel no obligation to care in return--, or He simply is unable to keep it all together--in which case, I'd rather side with Satan, who clearly has the situation under control.
    J0N1CU5
    Edited by Jonicus Maximus, : Changed bumbling fool to Bumbling Fool (out of respect, of course) ;-)--&--other minor grammar issues.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 42 by Phat, posted 02-13-2007 12:32 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 53 by Phat, posted 02-14-2007 7:29 AM Jon has replied

      
    riVeRraT
    Member (Idle past 415 days)
    Posts: 5788
    From: NY USA
    Joined: 05-09-2004


    Message 52 of 61 (385069)
    02-14-2007 1:30 AM
    Reply to: Message 47 by Phat
    02-13-2007 12:47 PM


    Re: What would I say?
    If I find that I truly want to make a relationship with someone rather than sell a product, I have better relationships form that are more long lasting.
    I couldn't agree more, relationships are the key. I always liked you phat, your a great person.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 47 by Phat, posted 02-13-2007 12:47 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 53 of 61 (385106)
    02-14-2007 7:29 AM
    Reply to: Message 51 by Jon
    02-13-2007 1:52 PM


    Re: What would I say?
    Jonicus writes:
    Either He truly does not care--in which case I feel no obligation to care in return--, or He simply is unable to keep it all together--in which case, I'd rather side with Satan, who clearly has the situation under control.
    Why are these the only two options? You basically have concluded that since God does not rule with an iron phist He is thus inferior to Satan...whom you say you prefer (ludicrous, I might add) or that God is uncaring. You have left out the option that God cares and is quite capable of being God with or without your approval...

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 51 by Jon, posted 02-13-2007 1:52 PM Jon has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 54 by Jon, posted 02-14-2007 8:07 AM Phat has replied

      
    Jon
    Inactive Member


    Message 54 of 61 (385110)
    02-14-2007 8:07 AM
    Reply to: Message 53 by Phat
    02-14-2007 7:29 AM


    Re: What would I say?
    Phat, this all goes back to the problem of evil, and you can't have an almighty God who is also all-good in a world where there is clearly evil. Let's look at it this way: (let x = "everything")
    P)God never does wrong.
    P)God does x.
    C)x is not wrong.
    BUT!, we know that x IS wrong--unless you think Hitler's genocide, slave triangles, deforestation, etc. are not wrong--(at least not in its entirety). So... either God isn't all too good, or He doesn't control everything--or rather, anything that's bad. Take your pick.
    J0N1CU5
    Edited by Jonicus Maximus, : grammar/wording

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 53 by Phat, posted 02-14-2007 7:29 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 55 by Phat, posted 02-14-2007 8:42 AM Jon has not replied
     Message 56 by Phat, posted 03-22-2007 2:50 PM Jon has not replied
     Message 58 by kuresu, posted 03-22-2007 6:53 PM Jon has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 55 of 61 (385112)
    02-14-2007 8:42 AM
    Reply to: Message 54 by Jon
    02-14-2007 8:07 AM


    Re: What would I say?
    God has the ability to be in control of everything, I would assume...yet he clearly is not. I would say that every move I make is done either in communion with Him or in communion with the other spirits. Its up to me which gang I choose to run with...NO?
    Edited by Phat, : finished the incomplete sentence that I previously had left dangling.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 54 by Jon, posted 02-14-2007 8:07 AM Jon has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 57 by ringo, posted 03-22-2007 5:47 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 56 of 61 (390908)
    03-22-2007 2:50 PM
    Reply to: Message 54 by Jon
    02-14-2007 8:07 AM


    Re: What would I say?
    Your premise is faulty.
    P)God never does wrong.
    P)God does x.
    C)x is not wrong.
    What you are saying is that God does something that people know to be wrong. Then you go on to list events that either people did or that nature did. Neither people nor nature are God.
    We can conclude that God does not control everything...at least not forcefully.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 54 by Jon, posted 02-14-2007 8:07 AM Jon has not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 411 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 57 of 61 (390948)
    03-22-2007 5:47 PM
    Reply to: Message 55 by Phat
    02-14-2007 8:42 AM


    Re: What would I say?
    Phat writes:
    God has the ability to be in control of everything, I would assume...yet he clearly is not.
    Ah, the Bart Simpson defense: "I could do that, but I don't wanna."
    How do you tell the difference between a god who doesn't do eveything and a god who can't do anything?
    I would say that every move I make is done either in communion with Him or in communion with the other spirits.
    So, if god doesn't do everything, mightn't I be better off going with one of the other spirits? Maybe one of them can do more than god does do.

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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 55 by Phat, posted 02-14-2007 8:42 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 60 by Phat, posted 03-23-2007 8:26 AM ringo has replied

      
    kuresu
    Member (Idle past 2512 days)
    Posts: 2544
    From: boulder, colorado
    Joined: 03-24-2006


    Message 58 of 61 (390971)
    03-22-2007 6:53 PM
    Reply to: Message 54 by Jon
    02-14-2007 8:07 AM


    Re: What would I say?
    as phat says, your premise is faulty.
    Why? what is evil to god? what is good? very few claim to understand the nature of god, so why are you putting your views on god?
    oh, and the genocides were good, so is deforestation, so was the slave triangle, so have all the massacres and forced migrations ad infinitum. (note: I do not think so) It all depends on who you ask. so clearly there is not even an absolute definition as to what is evil or not. and your premise really relies on absolutes.
    another problem--does evil = wrong? not every time, i would argue. It is wrong of me to skip class, but is that evil? It is wrong of me to stereotype people, yet is that evil? Is it wrong to kill people, or evil too? Because god has killed a lot of people (assuming OT god here). But the act wasn't evil in nature--he was ridding the world of evil.
    a better premise would be:
    P)god never does evil
    P)god does X
    C) X is not evil.
    you have a twice faulty syllogism (and yes, my update is also faulty, because it relies on an absolute definition of what is evil, when such does not exist).

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 54 by Jon, posted 02-14-2007 8:07 AM Jon has not replied

      
    CTD
    Member (Idle past 5869 days)
    Posts: 253
    Joined: 03-11-2007


    (1)
    Message 59 of 61 (391029)
    03-23-2007 7:18 AM


    Bottom LIne
    I think this all boils down to blaming God for the actions of others because He created them with free will. By definition, free will allows the possibility that they won't always do what is right. But somehow, the blame for wrong actions gets shifted from the wrongdoers to the very One who is fully capable of making things right in the end.
    I can't agree with shifting responsibility in this manner. When the guilty party is known, why do they always point their finger at someone else? Who can respect such people?

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 60 of 61 (391036)
    03-23-2007 8:26 AM
    Reply to: Message 57 by ringo
    03-22-2007 5:47 PM


    Re: What would I say?
    Ringo writes:
    So, if god doesn't do everything, mightn't I be better off going with one of the other spirits? Maybe one of them can do more than god does do.
    Actually, I think thats precisely what we do every day. Our day is one vast game of musical chairs. When the music stops, or if it were to stop, which chair would we be sitting in? We become the choices that we make. Life is one vast continuum of choices.
    Often, we do choose one of the other spirits because it makes us feel better for the moment. As long as we are alive, we can freely vacillate between the Holy Spirit and the pantheon of imposters....but wre we ever to die, the music would simply stop and we would find ourselves cozied up to the spirit we had chosen.
    I like to know who I'm close to, thats for sure!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 57 by ringo, posted 03-22-2007 5:47 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 61 by ringo, posted 03-23-2007 11:36 AM Phat has not replied

      
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