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Author Topic:   Christianity Is Broken, but Can Be Fixed
bkelly
Inactive Member


Message 166 of 247 (267751)
12-11-2005 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by randman
12-10-2005 10:36 PM


What to they think of themselves
Hello randman,
But it's clear that many people hold to the name of Jesus but are very far from the principles of Christ, and maybe we are all very far in some respects, but to argue that the Klan were following the teachings of Christ, to love their neighbor, when they went about terrorizing them, is well, an absurd argument.
Please allow a clarification. I strongly suspect that the many or maybe even most of the members of the KKK held themselves as good christians. That is not to say they were in your eyes, the eyes of the pope, or Pat Robertson, or any person that truly is a good christian. But they (the KKK members) thought they were good christians and that god did indeed intend them (the KKK members) to hold the beliefs that they hold.
Allow me to pose the following questions in the first person perspective, not to anger or insult you, but to reduce linguistic contortions. Let’s assume you claim you are a good Christian and I am speaking to you as such. Please assume also that I do not ask such questions to cast doubt upon your aspirations as a good christian, but to gain information, such as; "What constitutes a good christian?"
Who are you to claim they are not good Christians and you are? It seems to me that they might have the same perspective as you, they are good Christians and you are not.
I note that in other conversations within this forum, we (the participants) have not been able to come close to a consensus of the definition of a good Christian. Other than the fact that person K declares themselves a Christian, no one has been able to admit to defining characteristics that can be recognized by other Christians or non-Christians.

Truth fears no question.
bkelly

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by randman, posted 12-10-2005 10:36 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by jar, posted 12-11-2005 12:28 PM bkelly has not replied
 Message 169 by randman, posted 12-11-2005 2:10 PM bkelly has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 167 of 247 (267760)
12-11-2005 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by bkelly
12-11-2005 11:16 AM


Re: What to they think of themselves
There is a big difference between being Christ-like, or following the teachings of Christ and being a Christian. The Klan was most definitely a Christian organization, and the members most definitely considered themselves as Christians, doing God's work.
That was not just a limited response, we can see the same thing going on today. Those Christians in the US today that support the Defence of Marriage act, that oppose marriage rights for same sex couples, are showing exactly the same mindset as the members of the Klan.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 168 of 247 (267781)
12-11-2005 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by randman
12-10-2005 10:23 PM


Re: Christian communities
Thanks for the explanation. I'd had a vague idea that Dominion theology insists that the whole world is to become Christian by the time Christ returns, which I don't see in scripture, but the long work of making disciples of all nations is nothing but scriptural. I've many times argued that eye for an eye was a curb on reckless overpunishment, without knowing the argument had connections with any particular theology.
This message has been edited by Faith, 12-11-2005 01:49 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by randman, posted 12-10-2005 10:23 PM randman has not replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 169 of 247 (267783)
12-11-2005 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by bkelly
12-11-2005 11:16 AM


Re: What to they think of themselves
I think evaluating people is not the best angle. The issue is what is the influence of Christ and his teachings. I think it's clear, for the most part, what Christ taught in references to love, forgiveness, etc,...
So take the folks in the Klan. For all we know, had they not been influenced nominally by Christianity, they might have been even worse.
In other words, the influences of Christ and His message are good, even if people take his name and do bad things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by bkelly, posted 12-11-2005 11:16 AM bkelly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by bkelly, posted 12-11-2005 6:25 PM randman has replied

bkelly
Inactive Member


Message 170 of 247 (267858)
12-11-2005 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by randman
12-11-2005 2:10 PM


Re: What to they think of themselves
randman writes:
I think evaluating people is not the best angle.
I supose not, if you want to dodge the question. But evaluate we must. We all select friends by evaluation. We allow some close to us and other not so close by evaluation. We set out behavior with each individual by evaluating how they might respond compared with what we might need. We cannot continue as a society without evaluating each other.
I try again:
bkelly writes:
Who are you to claim they are not good Christians and you are? It seems to me that they might have the same perspective as you, they are good Christians and you are not.
There is a question posed. You wrote in reply, but did not address the point. Will you do so now?

Truth fears no question.
bkelly

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by randman, posted 12-11-2005 2:10 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by randman, posted 12-11-2005 10:13 PM bkelly has replied

bkelly
Inactive Member


Message 171 of 247 (267862)
12-11-2005 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by randman
12-10-2005 10:23 PM


What should a chrisitan do?
randman writes:
Calvin and some of his followers, of course, took this too far politically and had heretics killed, and so lots of people accuse dominionists of wanting to do the same thing, but that's not really true. They do believe in applying the Old Testament, but as a matter of principles, not that we stone people or things like that.
Maybe you should. The bible says you should. Let’s check this out.
What is a heretic? Just to verify I found this: Heretic Quotes - BrainyQuote
One who holds to a heresy; one who believes some doctrine contrary to the established faith or prevailing religion.
So then I went to exodus and found:
exodus 22:20 writes:
He who sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed.
exodus 23:24 writes:
Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.
There are many me lines from exodus and other books of the bible with the same spirit. Sounds to me like you are required to kill the heretics. What are you waiting for?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by randman, posted 12-10-2005 10:23 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Faith, posted 12-11-2005 7:17 PM bkelly has replied
 Message 174 by randman, posted 12-11-2005 10:14 PM bkelly has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 172 of 247 (267873)
12-11-2005 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by bkelly
12-11-2005 6:41 PM


Re: What should a chrisitan do?
Here's my attempt at an answer.
The Old Testament is a report on God's dealings with the nation of Israel, which He chose to represent Him in the world and to be the keeper of His word and the progenitors of the Messiah who would save the world from sin. As a theocracy they were to obey Him as a nation in all things. Their laws are true laws that do reflect the mind of God, though Jesus perfected them, but we no longer have a theocracy and fallen human nature is incapable of obeying them anyway.
What a heretic is cannot be determined outside the knowledge of God Himself, and although true Christians have the spiritual discernment to recognize them, that recognition is imperfect. It's no longer a simple matter of knowing a heretic by his sacrificing to a literal idol on a literal hill. There are always other Christians with other views and beyond that, there will always be challenges to any Christian view by the less discerning views of fallen humanity. Christians are also not a theocracy in a position to enact laws in this world, but scattered throughout the pagan nations just as the Jews are. Therefore, in more than one way it is wrong to punish heretics. To live at peace in this world now, we need laws that protect all beliefs from punishment.
The laws of pagan nations are given by God too, only indirectly, and are not nearly so strict as laws given to His theocracy, because pagans cannot and do not even attempt to obey God as He has presented Himself in the Bible, and God tolerates their disobedience until Jesus comes again, just as He patiently tolerates the disobedience of each of us individually in the hope that we might yet turn to Him and be saved and learn to obey through His power.
However, it is quite right to understand those commands and laws given to the Israelites as a picture of how God Himself will ultimately deal with those who transgress, and take them as a warning.
This message has been edited by Faith, 12-11-2005 07:25 PM
This message has been edited by Faith, 12-11-2005 07:28 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by bkelly, posted 12-11-2005 6:41 PM bkelly has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 182 by bkelly, posted 12-12-2005 5:12 PM Faith has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 173 of 247 (267917)
12-11-2005 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by bkelly
12-11-2005 6:25 PM


Re: What to they think of themselves
My stance is the influence of Christ and His teachings are positive and good, and so it is moot point if the Klan were somehow real Christians in their eyes, your eyes, or anyone's eyes. The relavant point is the influence of Christ and His teachings.
If you don't like the way I addressed the point, now for the 2nd time, that's your business, not mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by bkelly, posted 12-11-2005 6:25 PM bkelly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by bkelly, posted 12-12-2005 5:17 PM randman has not replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 174 of 247 (267918)
12-11-2005 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by bkelly
12-11-2005 6:41 PM


Re: What should a chrisitan do?
Maybe you don't the followers of Jesus preach the gospel not the Law; you know, that's why the Bible has an Old Testament and a New Testament.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by bkelly, posted 12-11-2005 6:41 PM bkelly has not replied

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 175 of 247 (267920)
12-11-2005 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Faith
12-11-2005 7:17 PM


Re: What should a chrisitan do?
However, it is quite right to understand those commands and laws given to the Israelites as a picture of how God Himself will ultimately deal with those who transgress, and take them as a warning.
Ditto, on preacher Faith's word here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Faith, posted 12-11-2005 7:17 PM Faith has not replied

truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 176 of 247 (268071)
12-12-2005 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Faith
12-10-2005 5:19 PM


The early Church was as divided by heresies and odd doctrinal issues as anything we see today.
This isn't true. The early churches had their problems, splits, and heresies, but it isn't remotely comparable to today, where there is a church on every street corner, and 22,000 denominations in one country (from US News & World Report in 1986; I'm sure there's more now).
History says this about the church in AD 185:
"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith...The Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although scattered throughout the whole world, yet, as if occupying but one house, carefully preserves it. She also believes these things just as if she had but one soul, and one and the same heart, and she proclaims them and teaches them and hands them down with perfect harmony, as if she possessed only one mouth" (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, I:10:1-2).
Sorry, I can't let this fly. For a religion that is supposed to be recognized by its unity and love (Jn 17:20-23; Jn 13:34), the division and lack of love has become famous. That is not a minor problem; that is a total and complete breakdown.
There is every kind of "Christian" theology these days, sometimes it seems one for every individual.
Ta da! How much worse can it get? Good heavens! Excusing this by asking us to look at "the few" is pointless. This is the result after a crash and burn, not after a minor dent.
Your focus on community is just one of many versions of New Testament Christianity.
My vision is one where the church is noted for its unity and love. It's the only version of NT Christianity, and it is succeeding and increasing.
My judgment of other churches is on the same basis. Y'shua is the one that said his disciples would be known by unity and love. I didn't make that up. Therefore, if his message is true, then where it is preached it should produce unity and love. I don't even care about "cultic tendencies." Unity and love are the measuring sticks Christ himself gave.
I say that we here at Rose Creek Village preach a true message, because the result of that message is an incredible and powerful love that unites disciples and increases their love for God. Wherever I else I see that happen, I make the same judgment. Where I don't see it happening, I say, "Oh, those people do not know or do not practice Y'shua's message."
Protestantism is not the faith of Christ or the apostles. Some people, by reading the Bible, hear enough of Christ's message to get some benefits from it. Protestantism, however, simply bears no resemblance to the churches that Y'shua's apostles started. It's a different religion.
I'm not so sure there is any particular solution we should be seeking except the usual attempt to keep our own hearts focused rightly.
That's fine. That's tried every day, so I can tell you what results you will get. In fact, I don't have to tell you, because you know such attempts will fail as well as I do.
We, on the other hand, have succeeded incredibly, which I think testifies that Christ's message is true. Meanwhile, the incredible success of science compared to the utter failure that is Christianity, testifies that his message is not true. That would make Christianity his enemy, I think.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Faith, posted 12-10-2005 5:19 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Faith, posted 12-12-2005 2:47 PM truthlover has replied

truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 177 of 247 (268073)
12-12-2005 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by jar
12-11-2005 12:28 PM


Re: What to they think of themselves
Those Christians in the US today that support the Defence of Marriage act, that oppose marriage rights for same sex couples, are showing exactly the same mindset as the members of the Klan.
I would agree with this, but for different reasons, I think, than you. I am glad that Christians consider same sex marriage wrong. I think Christ agrees.
On the other hand, I don't believe Y'shua ever used a worldly government or force or violence to push his teachings, and it is there that I believe Christians bear resemblance to the Klan. John the Baptizer is commended for his harsh outspokenness in the Scriptures. However, John was not violent, did not promote the use of force, and he did not appeal to the government to enforce his views.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by jar, posted 12-11-2005 12:28 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 178 of 247 (268075)
12-12-2005 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by randman
12-11-2005 10:14 PM


Re: What should a chrisitan do?
the followers of Jesus preach the gospel not the Law; you know, that's why the Bible has an Old Testament and a New Testament.
I'd say that just as importantly to the reason you said this is that Israel was an earthly kingdom, and Y'shua's kingdom is not from this earth. Therefore, Y'shua's kingdom does not use the same methods that Israel did. Y'shua's kingdom may expel people, but it does not stone them, nor even strike them back when struck. It returns blessing for cursing, prayers for persecution, and good for evil.
Of course, for the most part Protestantism doesn't do these things, which is just one more sign that it's not Y'shua's kingdom. It seeks to control the government and it seeks to rule over those outside its fold, because it is not a separate kingdom. It is just a part of the world.
The way it's supposed to be is that a major difference between the old and new covenants is that the former was with an earthly kingdom and the latter with a spiritual one, so that stoning and other such activities had no application under the new covenant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by randman, posted 12-11-2005 10:14 PM randman has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 179 of 247 (268247)
12-12-2005 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by truthlover
12-12-2005 8:05 AM


The early Church was as divided by heresies and odd doctrinal issues as anything we see today.
This isn't true. The early churches had their problems, splits, and heresies, but it isn't remotely comparable to today, where there is a church on every street corner, and 22,000 denominations in one country (from US News & World Report in 1986; I'm sure there's more now).
That number is famously inflated and very misleading, as it counts all merely governmentally independent bodies as separate, thereby falsely implying doctrinal separation. Baptist churches for instance are often independent churches and they are counted separately although they don't differ doctrinally from other Baptist churches. Also, the differences in doctrine among the vast majority of all the Protestant churches are minor as they agree on the main points.
It took a while but I finally located the discussion of this in my own files that I'd bookmarked a couple years ago. Google has pages of sites that simply perpetuate the fiction of massive doctrinal division, and I couldn't find this one anywhere in their list. The number has apparently recently settled down to 22,000 but it's been both lower and higher:
http://www.sxws.com/charis/apol44.htm
In other words, the true count of real denominations within Protestantism is twenty-one, whereas the true count of real denominations within Roman Catholic is sixteen.
In any case, the New Testament writers report crucial arguments over doctrine, warn about wolves in sheep's clothing, identify the gnostic heresy, admonish the churches to avoid futile disagreements and the like; and Jesus in Revelation identifies the false doctrine of the Nicolaitians and the false teachings of the "Jezebel" -- all of which implies at least as much doctrinal confusion as we have today.
History says this about the church in AD 185:
quote:
"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith...The Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although scattered throughout the whole world, yet, as if occupying but one house, carefully preserves it. She also believes these things just as if she had but one soul, and one and the same heart, and she proclaims them and teaches them and hands them down with perfect harmony, as if she possessed only one mouth" (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, I:10:1-2).
I like the sound of that, certainly, but I suspect Irenaeus is making a simple point about the basics of the faith, which can honestly be said of many of today's thousands of separate denominations as well, that despite the minor disagreements we ARE of one heart, mind and soul on the basics of the faith. I am in a church I chose because the preaching is the best I've found anywhere, but that doesn't mean I consider a couple dozen other churches I've visited in my area to be teaching a false gospel. I have problems with many of their emphases but I know them to believe what I believe on the basics and therefore to be Christians.
Sorry, I can't let this fly. For a religion that is supposed to be recognized by its unity and love (Jn 17:20-23; Jn 13:34), the division and lack of love has become famous. That is not a minor problem; that is a total and complete breakdown.
I agree that the American church in particular is desperately in need of revival and reformation, but I'm not going to accept this blanket condemnation. The divisions are, as I said above, minor but inflated to please who-knows-what enemy of Christianity (and I'd add that when groups like yours criticize the other churches and go off to found yet another attempt to recover the supposedly lost truths of the early church you are simply contributing to the problem of division you are criticizing -- because that is exactly how many of these divisions occur.) I think we should be able to discuss the problems without applying such a broad brush of condemnation and relying on such misleading statistics.
There is every kind of "Christian" theology these days, sometimes it seems one for every individual.
quote:
Ta da! How much worse can it get? Good heavens! Excusing this by asking us to look at "the few" is pointless. This is the result after a crash and burn, not after a minor dent.
Um, I think you may have misunderstood my point. I've encountered these individualists mostly at EvC and most of them I don't consider Christian at all, it's just that the term is now co-opted by anybody who takes a liking to it these days.
Your focus on community is just one of many versions of New Testament Christianity.
quote:
My vision is one where the church is noted for its unity and love. It's the only version of NT Christianity, and it is succeeding and increasing.
Maybe we should avoid the statistical stuff and the blanket criticism then and just discuss the particular attitudes you have in mind as I just don't see the entire landscape of Christianity as you do.
My judgment of other churches is on the same basis. Y'shua is the one that said his disciples would be known by unity and love. I didn't make that up. Therefore, if his message is true, then where it is preached it should produce unity and love. I don't even care about "cultic tendencies." Unity and love are the measuring sticks Christ himself gave.
Um, the Mormons have that in some sense and they like to boast of it too. How are we going to recognize the unity and love that Christ was talking about if people who think God is a finite human being who became "god" and they expect to be able to do the same and be just like him in the end, appear to have it?
I say that we here at Rose Creek Village preach a true message, because the result of that message is an incredible and powerful love that unites disciples and increases their love for God. Wherever I else I see that happen, I make the same judgment. Where I don't see it happening, I say, "Oh, those people do not know or do not practice Y'shua's message."
Perhaps you are right, but I'm not yet convinced. And if groups may have a kind of loving togetherness that is based on a false doctrine would that not matter to you?
Protestantism is not the faith of Christ or the apostles. Some people, by reading the Bible, hear enough of Christ's message to get some benefits from it. Protestantism, however, simply bears no resemblance to the churches that Y'shua's apostles started. It's a different religion.
...We, on the other hand, have succeeded incredibly, which I think testifies that Christ's message is true.
If it's really Christ's message -- and if it lasts beyond a few years of the heady experience of all new experiments with community. Much of what you've said seems to be Christ's message, some I'm not so sure of. I can identify such a lack of love, including in myself, certainly, but you aren't yet talking about it in a way that convinces me we're thinking of the same thing.
I'm with a Tozer when he criticizes the church, or a Schaeffer, those who criticize from within the church, and in fact that's the job of all good preachers in a way, but I'm rather leery of those who criticize it from outside.
Meanwhile, the incredible success of science compared to the utter failure that is Christianity, testifies that his message is not true. That would make Christianity his enemy, I think.
Please explain.
This message has been edited by Faith, 12-12-2005 03:00 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by truthlover, posted 12-12-2005 8:05 AM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by bkelly, posted 12-12-2005 5:25 PM Faith has replied
 Message 189 by truthlover, posted 12-13-2005 6:26 PM Faith has replied
 Message 190 by truthlover, posted 12-13-2005 6:32 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 180 of 247 (268269)
12-12-2005 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by truthlover
12-12-2005 8:10 AM


Re: What to they think of themselves
On the other hand, I don't believe Y'shua ever used a worldly government or force or violence to push his teachings, and it is there that I believe Christians bear resemblance to the Klan. John the Baptizer is commended for his harsh outspokenness in the Scriptures. However, John was not violent, did not promote the use of force, and he did not appeal to the government to enforce his views.
While I can agree that today's Christians may be exerting far too much energy in the service of mere earthly governmental concerns, when we should be sticking to the gospel itself in the hope of rescuing many into the spiritual Kingdom of God, being salt and light in the world means that we do have a responsibility to work against the corruptions fallen humanity is so likely to institute to its own harm. That is, fallen humanity may for instance see nothing wrong with homosexual marriage, but since Christians do, and since we know that God will punish a nation for such a thing, as He makes clear in the Old Testament, it is a responsibility of ours to do what we can to keep benighted humanity from committing suicide as it were by supporting and approving of such a law. That's a small version of loving our neighbor as ourselves I think.
This message has been edited by Faith, 12-12-2005 03:27 PM

This message is a reply to:
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