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Author
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Topic: Why Creationism
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Zealot
Inactive Member
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Re: One thing that really bothers me...
Then why did God also want to keep them away from the fruit of the tree of life? Wasn't the risk that they would "take also of the tree of life and eat, and live for ever"?
Dan, please quote which verses you are referring to. thanks
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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Message 17 of 91 (67037)
11-17-2003 10:07 AM
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Reply to: Message 16 by Zealot
11-17-2003 10:00 AM
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Re: One thing that really bothers me...
Genesis 3:22, King James Version.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 16 by Zealot, posted 11-17-2003 10:00 AM | | Zealot has not replied |
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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Message 18 of 91 (67038)
11-17-2003 10:07 AM
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Reply to: Message 16 by Zealot
11-17-2003 10:00 AM
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Re: One thing that really bothers me...
Whoops, double post. [This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 11-17-2003]
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 16 by Zealot, posted 11-17-2003 10:00 AM | | Zealot has not replied |
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Zealot
Inactive Member
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Re: One thing that really bothers me...
Then why did God also want to keep them away from the fruit of the tree of life? Wasn't the risk that they would "take also of the tree of life and eat, and live for ever"? How could it make them live for ever if they would have already done that anyway?
22 And the LORD God said: 'Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.' 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubim, and the flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way to the tree of life. Tree of life <> Tree of Knowlege. The Tree of Life could have been a 'fountain of youth', preventing ageing while they were in paradise. Once Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowlege and thus could distinguish good from evil, they would not be allowed to live in paradise anymore , hence Gen 23 to 24.
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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Message 20 of 91 (67050)
11-17-2003 10:47 AM
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Reply to: Message 19 by Zealot
11-17-2003 10:43 AM
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Re: One thing that really bothers me...
quote:
The Tree of Life could have been a 'fountain of youth', preventing ageing while they were in paradise.
It doesn't say anything about preventing aging. But it does say it prevents death. (i.e., allows them to live forever.) They were forbidden to eat from the tree of life. Why would that be a concern if they already weren't going to die? This leads to another big question about the bible in general... if immortality is the only thing that keeps us from being like God, then why aren't we able to disagree with his rules of morality and sin? According to his own words, we are like him as far as knowledge of good and evil goes.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 19 by Zealot, posted 11-17-2003 10:43 AM | | Zealot has replied |
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Zealot
Inactive Member
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Re: One thing that really bothers me...
It doesn't say anything about preventing aging. But it does say it prevents death. (i.e., allows them to live forever.)
We have no idea what it did. Whether prevent ageing, actually reversing ageing or preveinting dying. A Tree of life that would allow ageing and prevent dying seems futile.
They were forbidden to eat from the tree of life. Why would that be a concern if they already weren't going to die?
They were forceably forbidden eating from the 'Tree of Life' only after they ate from the tree of Knowlege. They could well have eaten from the tree of life whilst in paradise. It could be what kept them immortal. The idea that they could suffer on Earth infinitely (by having access to the tree of life) was not acceptable.
This leads to another big question about the bible in general... if immortality is the only thing that keeps us from being like God, then why aren't we able to disagree with his rules of morality and sin? According to his own words, we are like him as far as knowledge of good and evil goes.
Again you need to quote text Dan.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 20 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-17-2003 10:47 AM | | Dan Carroll has replied |
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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Message 22 of 91 (67065)
11-17-2003 11:58 AM
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Reply to: Message 21 by Zealot
11-17-2003 11:35 AM
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Re: One thing that really bothers me...
quote:
We have no idea what it did. Whether prevent ageing, actually reversing ageing or preveinting dying. A Tree of life that would allow ageing and prevent dying seems futile.
"Live for ever." Pretty straightforward. Anything else is supposition.
quote:
They were forceably forbidden eating from the 'Tree of Life' only after they ate from the tree of Knowlege. They could well have eaten from the tree of life whilst in paradise. It could be what kept them immortal.
So... what, it would require continuous eating of the fruit of life to remain immortal? Or they only had to eat it once, but it only worked inside the garden? That doesn't make much sense, does it? Why wouldn't it be a one-shot, now you got it and it ain't goin' away, kinda deal like the fruit of knowledge? This is requiring an awful lot of supposition in addition to the text, just for it to make linear sense.
quote:
Again you need to quote text Dan.
It's in your quote:
quote:
And the LORD God said: 'Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil
We know good and evil just like God. This is from God's own lips. So why can't we make our own decisions as to what's good and what's evil?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 21 by Zealot, posted 11-17-2003 11:35 AM | | Zealot has replied |
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
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Message 23 of 91 (67112)
11-17-2003 3:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 13 by Zealot
11-17-2003 9:26 AM
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Considering Adam and Eve were immortals, the transition from immortal to mortal would imply that when they eat from it, they would start dying, from that very day. Maybe, but that's not a literal interpretation, don't you think? It literally says they'll die that day. Not that they'll start dying. If I told you "you're going to die today", wouldn't you assume I meant that you would be dead by the end of the day? Why is it then that you assume God meant something else by the very same words?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 13 by Zealot, posted 11-17-2003 9:26 AM | | Zealot has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 24 by NosyNed, posted 11-17-2003 4:00 PM | | crashfrog has not replied | | | Message 25 by Zealot, posted 11-17-2003 4:11 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
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NosyNed
Member Posts: 9003 From: Canada Joined: 04-04-2003
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Message 24 of 91 (67128)
11-17-2003 4:00 PM
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Reply to: Message 23 by crashfrog
11-17-2003 3:43 PM
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"Literal" I am finding it both annoying and amusing that the whole reason there is any disagreement is that there are those who think the bible is inerrant and to be taken literally. However, they then decide that it is not to be taken literally. Why this isn't an intellectual problem for those folks is, as I say, both annoying (because they cause so much trouble starting from this point) and amusing (because it is so obviously funny to the majority of observers).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 23 by crashfrog, posted 11-17-2003 3:43 PM | | crashfrog has not replied |
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Zealot
Inactive Member
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Message 25 of 91 (67135)
11-17-2003 4:11 PM
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Reply to: Message 23 by crashfrog
11-17-2003 3:43 PM
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It literally says they'll die that day. Not that they'll start dying.
Yes, but what death was He talking about ? Death to the grave, or spiritual death ? Since the original sin, man needs to be 'reborn' to find God. Or was He literally talking about 2 immortals becoming mortal ? Kinda difficult seeing as you are not dealing with everyday humans.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 23 by crashfrog, posted 11-17-2003 3:43 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5929 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: 08-30-2003
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Message 26 of 91 (67138)
11-17-2003 4:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 25 by Zealot
11-17-2003 4:11 PM
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Zealot Where in the Bible does it state that Adam and Eve were immortal to begin with?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 25 by Zealot, posted 11-17-2003 4:11 PM | | Zealot has not replied |
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
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Message 27 of 91 (67139)
11-17-2003 4:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 25 by Zealot
11-17-2003 4:11 PM
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Yes, but what death was He talking about ? Death to the grave, or spiritual death ? What death did you think I was talking about when I said it? If I was talking about a metaphorical, not literal, death, wouldn't I have said so when I said it? But I didn't qualify "death", and neither does God. I think it's safe to assume, therefore, that we're both talking about the same kind of death.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 25 by Zealot, posted 11-17-2003 4:11 PM | | Zealot has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 29 by Zealot, posted 11-17-2003 4:38 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
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Zealot
Inactive Member
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Re: One thing that really bothers me...
"Live for ever." Pretty straightforward. Anything else is supposition.
So.. live for ever AND age or live for ever without ageing ?
So... what, it would require continuous eating of the fruit of life to remain immortal? Or they only had to eat it once, but it only worked inside the garden? That doesn't make much sense, does it?
Shall we go with continuously eating it ? Or would you like to know if the tree of life only provides life to mortals and not immortals ? What if Adam and Eve again ate from the Tree of Knowlege. Would it have another effect on them ? Adam and Eve must have died in a way for the tree of life to 'give them life' no ? You decide and when you're ready to say its non-sense, feel free 
We know good and evil just like God. This is from God's own lips. So why can't we make our own decisions as to what's good and what's evil?
You can indeed convince yourself that something is not evil and after a while, you might even believe that. But you're deceiving only yourself.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 22 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-17-2003 11:58 AM | | Dan Carroll has replied |
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Zealot
Inactive Member
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Message 29 of 91 (67148)
11-17-2003 4:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 27 by crashfrog
11-17-2003 4:18 PM
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What death did you think I was talking about when I said it? If I was talking about a metaphorical, not literal, death, wouldn't I have said so when I said it?
Its of little importance what death YOU are talking about, the importance is what death HE was talking about.
But I didn't qualify "death", and neither does God. I think it's safe to assume, therefore, that we're both talking about the same kind of death.
If God talked about a literal death (IE: Adam falling to the ground choking), he would have died that day. Your options are spiritual death, or removal of immortality. z
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 27 by crashfrog, posted 11-17-2003 4:18 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5929 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: 08-30-2003
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Message 30 of 91 (67150)
11-17-2003 4:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 29 by Zealot
11-17-2003 4:38 PM
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Zealot I ask you again where in the book of genesis does it state that Adam and Eve are immortal?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 29 by Zealot, posted 11-17-2003 4:38 PM | | Zealot has not replied |
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