Islam does not hate christianity

Can you trust your own eyes?

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-one word to describe me, spectacular yes

NOTICE: I am no longer responding to posts about the Palestine-Israel conflict. It became a battle about unprovable personal experience and feelings and I don't want to play that game. If somebody wants to try to collect the objective aspects of it in another thread maybe I'll join you.

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The next thing you will hear is that they don't believe in Jesus but this other weird guy called Isa who did miracles and stuff...

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"Isa" is the legitimate Arabic equivalent of "Jesus", but "Allah" is not the Name of God. If it were ALWAYS used only in its generic or at least popular sense as "God" (which, as I understand it, is not linguistically or historically correct in any case) there would not be a problem, but when it is used as God's Name it is false. [Edit: He is not the same God in any case because he does not have the same character and attributes as the true God who reveals Himself in the Bible and nowhere else.]And of course they don't believe in Jesus as they believe wrong things about Jesus.This message has been edited by Faith, 02-27-2005 17:58 AM

On this forum we speak English, in which language the generic word for God is "God." For an English-speaking Muslim to call God "Allah" instead of "God" is to use a name for God, NOT the generic as is so often claimed.[Edit: And again, the Muslim God is not the Biblical God because he does not have the same character and attributes as the Biblical God.]Time for you to concede something. LONG PAST time as a matter of fact. You should also concede that your personal experience does not amount to an argument as it is only the testimony of a witness in a case in which the other side has no representation.This message has been edited by Faith, 02-27-2005 18:26 AM

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Isn't that exactly what he's said? That if it makes Israel look bad, it's always a lie?

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I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt - some things are said for emphasis rather than to be taken literally. I try to pick my own word choice carefully to be sure that I don't imply something I don't mean to (especially online, where - as you'll often see here, most notably in the Rrhain/holmes chains - people tend to pick apart everything you say and occasionally even add a meaning that it was quite clear you weren't trying to express). However, I realize that not everyone does this and I slip up myself quite often anyway.

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Thank you VERY much. The nitpickers around here who pounce on every casual phrase and would "make a person an offender for a word" are getting to me.

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I try to pick my own word choice carefully to be sure that I don't imply something I don't mean to

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Excellent advice, and necessary in this place, that's for sure.I'm going through the posts one by one as I can get to them and am not ignoring the rest of your post, though since it is about Israel I don't know if I will answer it, as it's off topic and I said I was no longer answering those. However, since it is on the objective side of the issue I may get back to it.

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If you follow up on stuff like this you ALWAYS find out it's a lie.

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Oh, always? You followed this one up? Or did you just assume that, since Israel cannot err, they must be blameless?

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See Morte's post on this. You are making an issue out of a mere exaggeration for effect --I shouldn't use the term "always" I admit, but your jumping on it is a red herring, a total waste of time. You are misrepresenting me by claiming I think Israel is blameless as I've said otherwise.I was unable to find the reference I thought I remembered about the girl. What I have found suggests a soldier got out of hand, was being held accountable for murder by the IDF, but was then freed because of a lying witness. A single soldier's misbehavior is not the fault of all Israel, especially when steps were taken to bring him to justice. When do the Palestinians bring their terrorists to justice at all by the way?

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I don't trust the media

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No, it's clear that you trust nothing except the Bible and Israel, which you trust absolutely; any evidence that contradicts either of those can be summarily dismissed.

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That's an ad hominem, sir, which I thought was out of bounds on this site. Though I exaggerate for effect at times, and hope I can stop doing it, you are over the top with exaggerations and misrepresentations.

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Let me pose a question - could Israel, in your opinion, ever go to far? Or is there no tactic that Israel could adopt that you would not support in the name of their own security?

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I'm sure they HAVE gone too far in some circumstances. All I'm doing is answering the absurd TOTAL smear campaign against them that says they never do anything right, they are nothing but evil murderers without any redeeming moral qualities, there are no just reasons for one single thing they ever do. Their side is NOT heard in the media or from any of you except in the briefest and most unsympathetic way, while the Palestinian side is played up with discussions of the pathetic circumstances of each of the victims, all the while ASSUMING perfidious Israeli behavior without the slightest interest in the Israeli side of the story. Lots of denunciations, accusations, fingerpointing, emotional carrying on. How often do we see lingering reports on the experiences of the victims of the suicide bombers as we do the endless reports on the Palestinian victims? No, it's always the Palestinians are "oppressed" they are ALWAYS the victims, their atrocities are always justified by their suffering from "occupation." It's all a put-up and until this is recognized there will never be a way to find out where Israel may commit excesses.[edit: I did it again. READ "ALWAYS" TO MEAN THAT THIS IS THE HABITUAL TYPICAL GENERAL TREND AND DON'T TAKE IT LITERALLY FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.]Now I answered another one about the Israel-Palestine flap and I don't want to answer any more.This message has been edited by Faith, 02-27-2005 20:25 AM

I am not asking you to buy it anymore. It is clear that you are very firm in your position. You can believe whatever you want to believe Faith. I am posting more for the dozens of other people who are reading this for them to judge who is right and who is wrong. I would like to know A valid reason for destroying crops, breaking the Geneva convention by using civilians as human shields, and preventing children from getting an education. If there is one then the audience will listen. Go ahead and speculate. I never said that all their actions were baseless. I am contesting the your original black and white claim of an honorable Israli force versus a vicious marauding terrorist group of Palestinians. Lets remember: Well, I'll even take speculation into consideration like I said above. Give me any good reason for why those things happened. How do you figure this. If someone is caught red handed burning a house down there dosen't need to be a reason to make it wrong. It is wrong because it is wrong. Because it is condemned by the rest of the world.
Israel condemned by 114 countriesYea I can. When you repeatidly destroy an innocent peoples way of life it is wrong under every moral system I have ever heard of. It dosen't matter the reason.Sure tearing down olive trees might hypothetically remove the cover that militants use, but not everywhere. But burning crops, pulling up baby trees, etc. Those kinds of actions stand on their own. They are evil actions and no lofty political or military reasoning make them any more right. You never had to trust me. You can believe whatever you want. But when you make accusations in public it is considered rude when they are without base. You can consider my family terrorists all you want. It is not going to hurt me any. I am here because I hate hate. That is obviously not true for everyone else on this forum. [qs]Unfortunately this is how the Palestinian side is often argued -- no facts, but a lot of feelings where there should be evidence.[qs] Except for the links I provided that back up many of my claims. But of course, I forgot, correlating news sources is not real evidence. My bad.

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By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

Once again, ignoring the fact that I posted evidence for my "hearsay and emotion." You have yet to address these other than hand waving them away as biased. Oh, I am sorry. I was unaware that personal accounts were not considered real evidence. What about the other evidence that I posted? Going to still hand wave it away? What evidence would you accept? No it is really fair actually. Ther reason you think it is unfair is because you made a blatant generalization that is incorrect. It is only unfair becuase your initial postion is extremely hard to support. You gave yourself too tough a job to do. Uh no. I posted a link to this that confirms, lets dig it up: BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Gaza raids 'left 2,000 homeless' and here is another: Rafah: Israel Destroys 2000 Homes Displaces 30,000 | Scoop News So yes while I have been pretty emotional, I have actually produced evidence. What more do you want me to do with this medium. It is not like I can drag anyone down there to show them in person. If you don't like news sources then I don't know what else to do. Maybe you can tell me what kinds of evidence you will accept. Not that it matters ALL that much. This is more for the other people reading this who haven't been reading pro-Israel propaganda for over 2 years. No. But if someone came screaming to me that their family member had just been murdered I wouldn't say, "naa, he probably had a pretty good reason." As you implication that this is what I want is false. You have distilled something out of my argument that I did not say. Don't forget the links that you don't like. You were the one arguing that it was on topic! Whatever. I am going to respond to your posts as long as you are making them on this issue. If you don't want to reply then I don't care. This is less about you anymore anyway. We already know what you think.

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By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

Greetings Jazzns,Just a quick note to let you know that I, (and I dare say others here as well) are well aware of the barbaric actions of the IDF - and the blatant media bias that ensures all Palestianian atrocities are reported while the larger number of Israeli ones get ignored.Many people commiserate with the evil pressed upon the Palestinians by the IDF, even if apologists like Faith refuse to admit it.Keep up the good work, even if we all know people like Faith will never listen - there are others who do :-)Iasion

That is interesting. You see, I thought, and pretty much the UN agrees, that they fighting is because native Palestinians have been illegally displaced. Global Policy ForumLook out, here comes the Israel hating BBC:
BBC NEWS | Middle East | UN condemns Israeli settlements List of UN resolutions against Israel.
http://www.middleeastnews.com/unresolutionslist.htmlSome snippits from the above site: This message has been edited by Jazzns, 02-27-2005 19:39 AM

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By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

Good. It only boils down to personal experiences because you choose not to accept the evidence I posted. You don't have to play any game. This is not for you anymore anyway. Well, you were the one who started arguing that it was on topic. I'll not start a new thread because my own purpose here was to dismiss your wanton arguments, not bring up new ones.

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By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

I hope you'll be able to put asside our previous spat when dealing with the "on topic" part of this thread. If I remember correctly, Moslems don't have a name for God like Christians do. Allah translates directly into "God" from Arabic to English. Most of the complains from Christians stem from their false belief that Allah is a God different from the God of Abraham. The same God that founded Judaism and Christianity. That is why the three religions are called the Abrahamic Faiths.Just because their version of of God differs from that of Christianity does not mean that THEY don't consider it to be the same God. They consider Christians more like wayward brothers than true idolaters. They recognize that their God is the same as the Christian God with the exception of the divinity of Christ. Granted this is a big difference from a Christian perspective but they consider it the same God. Well, they believe that Jesus existed. That he was a prophet. That he is coming back during Armageddon and will reign on earth after defeating sin. The only difference is that they do not believe in his divinity. So you are incorrect in saying that they do not believe in Jesus. They just believe in Jesus differently then we do.

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By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

I live in the southwest which is very much bilingual. Often times people who have two different laguages will substitute a word that they feel more comfortable even when in the context of the other language. I remember my grandma telling me, "Go lavar your hands!" when I was a kid. With a concept like God I would expect someone to use the phrase in the language that they feel more comfortable with.I have heard many Moslems use God instead of Allah when translating lessons from an Imam. I have also heard them use both interchangably during the same lesson.I think the main point is that you are not the one to decide what the definition of Allah is. They think of it as the same God as the God from the old testament. They define it that way. Any alternate definition used when discussing what they believe is just plain wrong. Once again. You don't get to define that. You may consider it to be different but they do not. When discussing what they believe you need to use their definition of God. I'll do no such thing. I backed up my experiences with links. If you dont like the links then that is fine, others will. We can leave this alone now.

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By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

If you are talking about me, I never maid the claim that everything they do is evil. I am countering your claim that all they do is blameless which you seem to have recanted of. Just wanted to be clear.

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By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

Thanks for your support.Yea. I am done trying to convince Faith. I'll only respond anymore to make sure that fallacies don't stand without rebuttal. I'll not let the last post on this topic be a falsehood.This message has been edited by Jazzns, 02-27-2005 21:54 AM

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By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

Chris,As the 300th post approaches, I can see no effective rebuttal of your OP. Also, Jazzns, I wish I'd had more to contribute, but none of it would be accepted as evidence. Although of a different nationality, my parents and two grandparents were born in Haifa.