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Author Topic:   Einstein's Religious Beliefs
Percy
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Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1 of 42 (466892)
05-18-2008 9:34 AM


A common creationist claim is that famous person so-and-so was a creationist or that famous scientist so-and-so believed in God, and Einstein is a common target. But in a 1954 letter from Albert Einstein to philosopher Eric Gutkind that just sold at Bloomsbury Auctions in London for $404,000, Einstein makes his religious beliefs eminently clear. Not that they weren't already, but he makes his position more clear in this private letter than he did in his public writings.
Here's a link to the NY Times article (requires subscription, which is free): Einstein Letter on God Sells for $404,000
I was also able to find on-line a more complete version of the text: What he wrote
Here's a couple excerpts:
Einstein writes:
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish.
For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions.
Is this sufficiently conclusive for creationists to stop claiming that just because Einstein tended to use God as a metaphor for the laws of the universe (e.g., "God does not play dice.") that he believed in God?
[Forum=-6]
--Percy

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Adminnemooseus
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Message 2 of 42 (466903)
05-18-2008 1:03 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 3 of 42 (466906)
05-18-2008 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
05-18-2008 9:34 AM


May I add another quote?
It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
[Albert Einstein, 1954, from "Albert Einstein: The Human Side", edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press]
The spin put on Einstein's beliefs at, say, Real Questions. Real Answers. Bible Based. - BibleAsk
is not too similar to these quotes somehow.

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Stile
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Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 4 of 42 (466955)
05-18-2008 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
05-18-2008 9:34 AM


Only one way about it
Albert Einstein writes:
For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions.
I really don't know much of Albert Einstein (just quotes I've read and from pop-culture, really).
But I've always gotten the feeling that he was a very... polite and reasonable man. I never got the feeling that he would inadvertently or accidentally insult anyone. I've always found him to be a man who chose his words carefully and wisely.
For him to call religion, and specifically the Jewish religion, "childish" is quite telling to me. I don't see how this can be skewed in any way.

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Briterican
Member (Idle past 3949 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


Message 5 of 42 (468462)
05-29-2008 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Stile
05-18-2008 8:38 PM


Re: Only one way about it
Perhaps because this was meant to be a private letter, Einstein didn't apply the same level of editorial jurisprudence that he would to a public statement.
If Einstein were to call another physicist's theories "childish", or if he referred to something in the political arena as "childish", this would not have raised any eyebrows, as it is perfectly acceptable to hold strong opinions on these matters.
Unfortunately, religion seems to hold some sort of special ground, and when a notable person makes comments at either end of the spectrum (for or against), it causes an uproar.
And by the way, this is my first attempt at joining in what appears to be a very active forum. I look forward to a lot of reading and catching up.

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Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 6 of 42 (468465)
05-29-2008 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Briterican
05-29-2008 4:20 PM


Re: Only one way about it
Welcome to EvC. There are quite a few very intelligent and knowledgeable people posting here, so its very easy to learn a thing or two.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 7 of 42 (468477)
05-29-2008 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
05-18-2008 9:34 AM


Einstein did believe in God, just not a personal God or a traditional one, but claiming he was merely talking of the laws of the universe is unfounded.
Care to try to substantiate Einstein was an atheist and simply referred to God as a metaphor for the laws of the universe?
If he was an atheist, he wouldn't have denied it when asked. He also stated he believed in Spinoza's God. Spinoza's God is a sentient being. Unless you want to argue Einstein was unaware of Spinoza's beliefs, I don't see how you have an argument.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 8 of 42 (468490)
05-29-2008 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by randman
05-29-2008 5:46 PM


Obviously the fact that Einstein denied believing in a "personal God" - i.e. a God that is in any sense a person - rather rules out the possibility that he was referring to an intelligent being.

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Briterican
Member (Idle past 3949 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


Message 9 of 42 (468491)
05-29-2008 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by randman
05-29-2008 5:46 PM


Einstein admired Spinoza
Thanks Perdition for the welcome to the board...
Excerpt from Spinoza and Einstein
When questioned about God and religion on behalf of an aged Talmudic scholar, Einstein replied:
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropomorphic concept which I cannot take seriously. I feel also not able to imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. My views are near to those of Spinoza: admiration for the beauty of and belief in the logical simplicity of the order and harmony which we can grasp humbly and only imperfectly. I believe that we have to content ourselves with our imperfect knowledge and understanding and treat values and moral obligations as a purely human problem ” the most important of all human problems."
I never stated I believed Einstein was an athiest, but the above quote clearly shows that he described his views as "near to those of Spinoza" rather than completely consistent with them.
In another interesting read at Einstein the agnostic
I found this quote attributed to Einstein...
"From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist.... I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our being."
You say "Einstein did believe in God, just not a personal God or a traditional one, but claiming he was merely talking of the laws of the universe is unfounded." I cannot completely disagree with this statement, but I don't see any evidence that Einstein's belief's extended much further than an admiration for "the logical simplicity of the order and harmony which we can grasp humbly and only imperfectly", which is essentially a metaphor for the laws of the universe.
Edited by Briterican, : No reason given.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 10 of 42 (468493)
05-29-2008 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by PaulK
05-29-2008 6:23 PM


nope
You misunderstand the comment on "personal God." It's a reference to the idea of God as someone that responds to prayer or is concerned with morals, ethics and human beings, that is "personal" in that manner.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 11 of 42 (468495)
05-29-2008 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by randman
05-29-2008 6:35 PM


Re: nope
Do you have some evidence as to exactly what Einstein meant when he said "personal God?" Or, are you assuming your own interpretation of that phrase and ascribing it to Einstein because that's what you want him to have meant?

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 12 of 42 (468496)
05-29-2008 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Briterican
05-29-2008 6:28 PM


Re: Einstein admired Spinoza
"You will hardly find one among the profounder sort of scientific minds without a peculiar religious feeling of his own . . . .His religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection."
Real Questions. Real Answers. Bible Based. - BibleAsk
Quite obviously Einstein believed there was a far superior intelligence behind natural law.
Furthermore, he point blank denied being an atheist.
I'm not an atheist
The context you quoted was that to a Jesuit, he would appear to be an atheist.....obviously a bit pf hyperbole, but when asked point blank about his belief in God, he denies being an atheist and merely reiterates he doesn't believe in a personal God such as the God in Judaism and Christianity.
Here is the quote in context which makes it clear Einstein believed in a Creator.
"I can't answer with a simple yes or no. I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see a universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws, but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinoza's pantheism, but admire even more his contributions to modern thought because he is the first philosopher to deal with the soul and the body as one, not two separate things."
Note his comparison and analogy of us as children that know someone wrote the books we see. We know someone created the rules, laws,and existence of the universe. We just don't know how.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 13 of 42 (468499)
05-29-2008 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Perdition
05-29-2008 6:38 PM


Re: nope
Read what he wrote. It's pretty clear. Just google some sites and read for yourself. Here are some comments. This first one should settle all doubts as to his belief in God but not the personal God that responds to prayer, etc,...
“I do not believe in the God of theology who rewards good and punishes evil. My God created laws that take care of that. His universe is not ruled by wishful thinking, but by immutable laws.”
http://www.kansascity.com/news/world/story/619097.html
I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings.
-- Albert Einstein, following his wife's advice in responding to Rabbi Herbert Goldstein of the International Synagogue in New York, who had sent Einstein a cablegram bluntly demanding "Do you believe in God?" Quoted from and citation notes derived from Victor J Stenger, Has Science Found God? (draft: 2001), chapter 3.
I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science. [He was speaking of Quantum Mechanics and the breaking down of determinism.] My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance -- but for us, not for God.
-- Albert Einstein, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press
I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves.
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/einstein.htm
Here he angrily denies being an atheist and is upset with people that claim he is.
"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."
"I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangements of the books, but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God."
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/einstein.html
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 14 of 42 (468501)
05-29-2008 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
05-18-2008 9:34 AM


hey percy
Einstein denied being an atheist. Check out the quote below:
[qs]
"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."
"I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangements of the books, but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God."
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/einstein.html
Note the comment that "there are yet people who say there is no God." Seems pretty clear he believed the universe itself was evidence of God, just not a personal God that responds to prayers, etc,....

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 15 of 42 (468502)
05-29-2008 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by randman
05-29-2008 6:35 PM


Re: nope
Your own quotes indicate otherwise. Einstein denies that his concept of God "...has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves." (Message 13)
See also the first quote in Message 9
It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropomorphic concept which I cannot take seriously.
Spinoza's God is also not a person as we would understand it
See here
As soon as this preliminary conclusion has been established, Spinoza immediately reveals the objective of his attack. His definition of God ” condemned since his excommunication from the Jewish community as a "God existing in only a philosophical sense" ” is meant to preclude any anthropomorphizing of the divine being
Because of the necessity inherent in Nature, there is no teleology in the universe. Nature does not act for any ends, and things do not exist for any set purposes. There are no "final causes" (to use the common Aristotelian phrase). God does not "do" things for the sake of anything else. The order of things just follows from God's essences with an inviolable determinism. All talk of God's purposes, intentions, goals, preferences or aims is just an anthropomorphizing fiction.

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