Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 114 (8789 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 09-21-2017 8:25 AM
337 online now:
Aussie, Joe T, Pressie, Stile, Tangle (5 members, 332 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Porkncheese
Post Volume:
Total: 819,207 Year: 23,813/21,208 Month: 1,778/2,468 Week: 287/822 Day: 13/67 Hour: 0/3

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev123456
7
8Next
Author Topic:   Would you give up your place in heaven...
ringo
Member
Posts: 13628
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(2)
Message 91 of 113 (735094)
08-05-2014 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Phat
08-05-2014 1:20 PM


Re: Ten Who Rejected Christ
Phat writes:

... we need Jesus (or Gods) impartation to even be able to have the necessary love.


You keep saying that AND you keep refusing to answer the question: Why is it that those who claim to have the impartation often don't show the love?

Phat writes:

... my point is that He died (and lived) for broken imperfect people...not for do-gooders who are willing and able to lay their lives down...macho style....like a fearless commando taking a bullet to protect ten.


We're all broken and imperfect. That's not an excuse for doing nothing. Even Noah was responsible for his own salvation.

(What he should have done was jam a bunch of his broken and imperfect neighbours into the ark.)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 08-05-2014 1:20 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 08-06-2014 9:01 AM ringo has responded
 Message 100 by Phat, posted 09-18-2015 12:00 PM ringo has responded

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 236 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


(2)
Message 92 of 113 (735098)
08-05-2014 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Phat
08-05-2014 12:53 PM


Re: Ten Who Rejected Christ
Jesus sacrificed His life for the benefit of all of us

No he didn't. He gave up part of a weekend. Not a long weekend, not even the whole weekend. He gave up part of a weekend. Big hairy deal.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 08-05-2014 12:53 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Phat, posted 08-06-2014 8:44 AM subbie has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9745
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 93 of 113 (735133)
08-06-2014 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by subbie
08-05-2014 3:21 PM


Crucifixion is NOT a magic trick
Keep in mind that for the son of a Deity who is human,the suffering was as bad as it would be for any other human. Its not as if He knew what it felt like to be eternal. You seem to see it as God dying and coming back to life...like a magic trick for a Deity. Jesus still experienced the event from a human perspective...He was not like superman

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by subbie, posted 08-05-2014 3:21 PM subbie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by subbie, posted 08-06-2014 9:07 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9745
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 94 of 113 (735136)
08-06-2014 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by ringo
08-05-2014 1:31 PM


Impartation and Integrity
ringo writes:

Why is it that those who claim to have the impartation often don't show the love?

Good question. We need communion. We cant do it all ourselves and He wont do it all for us. Donald miller sheds some insight into his belief on the subject:

quote:
A person with integrity isn’t always a good person. There aren’t any purely good people. Another, more realistic understanding of the term integrity involves a person being integrated. And by integrated I mean they understand they have a mixture of motives. They sometimes do good. They sometimes do bad. They sometimes are loving, and they’re sometimes spiteful. Some people are better than others, but nobody is purely good and nobody is purely bad
People who attribute all the credit to God often dont hold up their end of the bargain. It may be true that God gave us the ability to breathe (metaphorically) but it is our responsibility to move and act. He doesnt automatically control us.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 08-05-2014 1:31 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by ringo, posted 08-06-2014 11:41 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 236 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 95 of 113 (735139)
08-06-2014 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Phat
08-06-2014 8:44 AM


Re: Crucifixion is NOT a magic trick
So what? He still didn't give his life. He gave a day and a half.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Phat, posted 08-06-2014 8:44 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 08-06-2014 9:18 AM subbie has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9745
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 96 of 113 (735141)
08-06-2014 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by subbie
08-06-2014 9:07 AM


Re: Crucifixion is NOT a magic trick
Lets say it was you or I. Say we were on a rack and our bodies got pulled apart. We would suffer and die...regardless if we came back to life in a day or two or a week....the resurrection is symbolic of our lives getting redeemed...we would still experience the death.

And it would still hurt a lot. We would never forget it even if it was only a few hours out of our lives.


...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by subbie, posted 08-06-2014 9:07 AM subbie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by subbie, posted 08-06-2014 3:37 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13628
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 97 of 113 (735162)
08-06-2014 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Phat
08-06-2014 9:01 AM


Re: Impartation and Integrity
Phat writes:

We need communion.


Clearly not, since those who are supposedly in communion are no better than those who are not.

Phat writes:

We cant do it all ourselves...


But we're the only ones we can count on to do anything.

Phat writes:

... and He wont do it all for us.


Remember what the thread is about: exchanging what He does for us with what He does to others.

Phat writes:

People who attribute all the credit to God often dont hold up their end of the bargain.


Then what's the point of attributing anything to God?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 08-06-2014 9:01 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 236 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 98 of 113 (735175)
08-06-2014 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Phat
08-06-2014 9:18 AM


Re: Crucifixion is NOT a magic trick
I'm not minimizing the pain and suffering that one endures during crucifixion. I'm just pointing out that he didn't give his life. He gave a day and a half.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 08-06-2014 9:18 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-06-2014 3:57 PM subbie has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11701
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 99 of 113 (735178)
08-06-2014 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by subbie
08-06-2014 3:37 PM


Re: Crucifixion is NOT a magic trick
I'm just pointing out that he didn't give his life. He gave a day and a half.

Kinda makes you wonder why he would sweat blood in anticipation...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by subbie, posted 08-06-2014 3:37 PM subbie has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9745
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 100 of 113 (769251)
09-18-2015 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by ringo
08-05-2014 1:31 PM


Re: Ten Who Rejected Christ
Ringo writes:

Even Noah was responsible for his own salvation.
(What he should have done was jam a bunch of his broken and imperfect neighbours into the ark.)

So lets think a minute...all of the reprobates on earth drowned except for a chosen group of reprobates allowed into the Ark.

This brings up questions.

  • Does God save us(empower us, cleanse us, choose us..etc...) or do we willfully become better people...of our own initiative. If the latter, I could see the sinful neighbors being given another chance. God is the one who ordained the flood, metaphorically...to wipe out reprobates. (as well as a bunch of animals, for whatever reason)

  • Some would argue that we don't (and cant) save ourselves. In which case rescuing the evil neighbors would be pointless...

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 91 by ringo, posted 08-05-2014 1:31 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 101 by ringo, posted 09-18-2015 12:15 PM Phat has responded

      
  • ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13628
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.4


    Message 101 of 113 (769253)
    09-18-2015 12:15 PM
    Reply to: Message 100 by Phat
    09-18-2015 12:00 PM


    Re: Ten Who Rejected Christ
    Phat writes:

    So lets think a minute...


    Well, let's not waste too much time trying to make sense of the Flood story.

    Phat writes:

    Does God save us(empower us, cleanse us, choose us..etc...) or do we willfully become better people...of our own initiative.


    In the Flood story, God chooses who will live and who will die. Apparently, the criterion he used was that "Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God." (Genesis 6:9)

    Later on, apparently of their own initiative, Noah and his descendants descended into the same reprobate behaviour, making the whole Flood exercise a failure. We have to wonder about God's ability to choose.

    Phat writes:

    If the latter, I could see the sinful neighbors being given another chance.


    We have only God's Word for it that He chose the right ones to save. We also have His Word for it that it didn't work.

    Phat writes:

    Some would argue that we don't (and cant) save ourselves. In which case rescuing the evil neighbors would be pointless...


    quote:
    "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part!"-- Animal House

    Sometimes you gotta do what's right, even if it's pointless.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 100 by Phat, posted 09-18-2015 12:00 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 102 by Phat, posted 09-18-2015 12:34 PM ringo has responded
     Message 103 by kjsimons, posted 09-18-2015 12:43 PM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9745
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 102 of 113 (769254)
    09-18-2015 12:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 101 by ringo
    09-18-2015 12:15 PM


    Re: Ten Who Rejected Christ
    Sometimes you gotta do what's right, even if it's pointless.
    Who determines whats right? Lets say you were invited to a lavish party by someone who knew you rather well.

    Do you give your invitation to someone whom your host may not know?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 101 by ringo, posted 09-18-2015 12:15 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 104 by ringo, posted 09-18-2015 12:45 PM Phat has responded

      
    kjsimons
    Member
    Posts: 647
    From: Orlando,FL
    Joined: 06-17-2003


    Message 103 of 113 (769255)
    09-18-2015 12:43 PM
    Reply to: Message 101 by ringo
    09-18-2015 12:15 PM


    Re: Ten Who Rejected Christ
    ringo writes:

    Later on, apparently of their own initiative, Noah and his descendants descended into the same reprobate behaviour, making the whole Flood exercise a failure.

    I hadn't really ever thought of the fludd and the eventual outcome that way. It's really does reflect poorly on the god of the old testament and does beg the question of why would he do it if it was destined to fail?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 101 by ringo, posted 09-18-2015 12:15 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 105 by ringo, posted 09-18-2015 12:52 PM kjsimons has not yet responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13628
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.4


    Message 104 of 113 (769256)
    09-18-2015 12:45 PM
    Reply to: Message 102 by Phat
    09-18-2015 12:34 PM


    Re: Ten Who Rejected Christ
    Phat writes:

    Who determines whats right?


    Our consciences.

    Phat writes:

    Lets say you were invited to a lavish party by someone who knew you rather well.
    Do you give your invitation to someone whom your host may not know?


    That depends on the circumstances. Personally, I don't like lavish parties so I'd do anything to avoid it. If I thought somebody else might "benefit" from the party more than I would, it would make sense to send them. If the host objected to me sending a substitute, he's no friend of mine.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 102 by Phat, posted 09-18-2015 12:34 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 106 by Phat, posted 09-18-2015 9:09 PM ringo has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13628
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.4


    Message 105 of 113 (769257)
    09-18-2015 12:52 PM
    Reply to: Message 103 by kjsimons
    09-18-2015 12:43 PM


    Re: Ten Who Rejected Christ
    kjsimons writes:

    It's really does reflect poorly on the god of the old testament and does beg the question of why would he do it if it was destined to fail?


    If you try to make sense of the Bible, you wind up with nonsensical conclusions, such as birds riding on the heads of dinosaurs. So if you can take something useful from a Bible story you should cut and run before you get mired in the details.

    The Flood story might tell you that God will save you if you trust in Him. Or it might tell you that you have to build your own ark. What it should NOT tell you is that it really happened.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 103 by kjsimons, posted 09-18-2015 12:43 PM kjsimons has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 107 by Omnivorous, posted 09-19-2015 8:15 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

      
    Prev123456
    7
    8Next
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.0 Beta
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017