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Member (Idle past 3618 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Anselm's Doctrine of Substitution | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Deception can be a good thing. You don't need to tell your auntie that her favourite dress is the ugliest thing you've seen in your life.
What is a lie? A deception. Why would God need to deceive anybody?
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
And taking a dollar off Donald Trump's pile isn't stealing if he doesn't notice it's gone? keeping quiet is not lying, however. It is simply knowing when to shut up. I would agree that it isn't necessarily "wrong" - but don't get hung up on definitions. You seem to be stuck in the rut that lying is "bad" so God would never lie. I would say instead that even if He flat-out lied for a good reason, that's not necessarily a bad thing.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Who created the father of lies? (Who is the grandfather of lies?)
Then there is the father of lies.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
So when I fire my shotgun out the window, I'm just allowing the possibility of evil? It takes somebody walking into the shotgun blast to actualize the evil?
All that was allowed was the possibility of evil...a possibility that was then actualized by Lucifer. Phat writes:
I wouldn't say that. I don't see where the snake had any "platform". He was telling the truth. He just didn't mention the consequences, so it was a half-truth. On the other hand, God told an untruth.
Of course you have a point if you say that the snake was simply using a political ad to sway the newly created humans to follow his platform. Phat writes:
That's why apologetics are ultimately circular. It always comes down to, "If it doesn't make any sense, it's because God doesn't think the same way we do. Some things can not be explained." Humans keep trying to bring God to their level of reasoning and guessing how God feels and what God would do. Then why do you try to explain them?
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's your absurd definition. God---by definition---would never need to lie. God did lie, whether He had to or not.
Phat writes:
He said they would die "the same day". They didn't. It's possible that He changed His mind and didn't carry through on His threat but that's the only way you can get around it being a lie.
How do we know that God lied? Phat writes:
There you go running in circles again. If it doesn't make sense, "we don't know".
How do we know that humanity was not supposed to live forever...just as Jesus does?
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
What's the difference between autonomy and free will?
My counterpoint is that autonomy, by definition is evil.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Full circle again. If we are judged by God for making the 'wrong' choice, how do we have free will? A choice between ice cream and a punch in the face is not a real choice.
My argument would be that even if your choices are not controlled by God, they will be judged by God.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
So why don't you play Lucifer's advocate and answer those questions? Pretend, just for a moment, that the apologetics you've been spoon-fed are not the be-all and end-all of knowledge. Pretend, just for a moment, that God isn't the idiot portrayed by the apologists.
Why must I listen to you? Can't I be an independent spirit apart from your flow? Why must I be you? Can't I be like you?
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
See what I mean about making God look like an idiot? Why would He be so petty?
I have the copyright on love for GOD as well as the name and concept of original Creator.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Why wouldn't He? What good does worship do for Him?
Are you suggesting that God leaves the idea of worship and obligation entirely at our choice and will? Phat writes:
As Groucho Marx said, "I don’t care to belong to any club that will have me as a member." I wouldn't have any respect for a God who had no expectations of me beyond obedience.
That even if we chose to become atheists and chose to look to no other higher source than ourselves that He would honor it?
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Such as?
IF I am gonna work hard, hard enough to give away more than I need...I have a few expectations also.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's why we evolved societies. Unfortunately you live in one of the most antisocial societies on earth. You can't even count on free healthcare.
I cant count on myself to work hard enough to take care of myself.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
How is honesty going against God?
How can I answer the questions honestly when it will mean I am going against God? Phat writes:
Or you might get a reality check of your own.
If I am truly going to be assigned satan as my client, I may well warn him about reality.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Good would also die.
If humans metaphorically ingested good and evil both, what would be true? We would die...in that evil itself will die. We have evil in us, thus death. Phat writes:
But of couse he was telling the truth. God Himself said so.
We would be like God. satan was not telling a truth, however. Phat writes:
Why would Satan or anybody else have to defend their right to exist?
Satan was defending his own right to exist.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Who said anything about being equal? We're talking about the right to exist, not be equal. You cant defend your right to be an equal. So, why would Satan or anybody else have to defend their right to exist?
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