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Author Topic:   Anselm's Doctrine of Substitution
1.61803
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Posts: 2704
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 16 of 80 (717430)
01-27-2014 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Jon
01-25-2014 11:57 AM


Re: God need never lie.
Hi Jon,

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

To which I will add:

If triangels had a god, it would have three sides.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Jon, posted 01-25-2014 11:57 AM Jon has not yet responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2704
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 17 of 80 (717435)
01-27-2014 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
01-23-2014 8:38 PM


Re: God need never lie.
Hi Phat,

I will answer with a question:

If during the holocaust a German family is hiding a family of jews in the attic. The SS come to the door and ask, are you hiding any jews in here. Is it as sin for the home owner to lie in order to save the jewish family therein?

Quid est veritas?


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 01-23-2014 8:38 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 01-27-2014 12:11 PM 1.61803 has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9581
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 18 of 80 (717439)
01-27-2014 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by 1.61803
01-27-2014 11:44 AM


Re: God need never lie.
this is a tough one. I shall answer based on my beliefs. There are but two basic spirits. The Spirit of truth, love, and creativity does not lie---has never lied---never will lie, in my belief. This is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of the Holy Trinity. It is quite likely...99%...that S.S. officers would not be flowing in this Spirit.

Then there is the father of lies. There is no truth in him. His purpose is to consolidate and hold power at any cost---including killing Jews.

My first task would be to identify the spirit behind the question. My second task would be saving lives---even by lies. The people in my attic are honorable people and they do in fact flow with the right spirit. So in summation---yes, I would lie to protect them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by 1.61803, posted 01-27-2014 11:44 AM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by 1.61803, posted 01-28-2014 10:46 AM Phat has responded
 Message 20 by ringo, posted 01-28-2014 10:59 AM Phat has responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2704
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 19 of 80 (717504)
01-28-2014 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
01-27-2014 12:11 PM


Re: God need never lie.
Phat writes:

yes, I would lie to protect them.

So is lying in the spirit of the greater good a sin or no?

If a mother or father are hiding from some enemy troops amoung a group of fellow villiagers. And they will all be put to the sword if found. Is it wrong for the mother to smother her crying baby to save the group?

Quid est veratas?


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 01-27-2014 12:11 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 01-28-2014 1:41 PM 1.61803 has responded

  
ringo
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Posts: 13450
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 20 of 80 (717508)
01-28-2014 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
01-27-2014 12:11 PM


Re: God need never lie.
Phat writes:

Then there is the father of lies.


Who created the father of lies? (Who is the grandfather of lies?)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 01-27-2014 12:11 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 01-28-2014 1:32 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9581
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 21 of 80 (717520)
01-28-2014 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by ringo
01-28-2014 10:59 AM


Re: God need never lie.
Of course we dont know the exact truth as to how it all happened, but I believe that God created a freewilled Lucifer as a powerful and beautiful angel...not an evil angel directly. Lucifer chose to allow his own ego to blossom and became satan.

I know you will pull up the verse in Isaiah--but I dont believe that God created evil directly. All that was allowed was the possibility of evil...a possibility that was then actualized by Lucifer. Humans inherited the reality of freewill made possible by a dualistic reality.

  • God created the option.
  • Lucifer chose the option and thus created the reality--in the spirit world. 1/3 of Congress voted to go with the satanic platform...2/3 voted to back the reigning president.

    One thing that is commonly done these days is to view good and evil in a relativistic and personal lens.

    I expect satan used the same argument before they booted him and his minions out of the government.

    Of course you have a point if you say that the snake was simply using a political ad to sway the newly created humans to follow his platform. And its also obvious that human nature...even today...campaigns for free will and seeks to place God on equal footing with our own wisdom and choice. You might be right...

    Personally I choose to believe in an absolute positional power over us rather than a relativistic inner power that leaves us responsible for the outcome...but then again try and see the argument from both sides.

    Humans keep trying to bring God to their level of reasoning and guessing how God feels and what God would do.

    God doesnt need to lie. The dress is ugly. You are a sinner. I am one too. We have the awareness of how to do good but we need communion with God. We simply cant do it all ourselves.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 20 by ringo, posted 01-28-2014 10:59 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 32 by ringo, posted 01-30-2014 11:01 AM Phat has responded

      
  • Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9581
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.8


    Message 22 of 80 (717523)
    01-28-2014 1:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 19 by 1.61803
    01-28-2014 10:46 AM


    The Greater Good
    1.61803 writes:

    If a mother or father are hiding from some enemy troops among a group of fellow villagers. And they will all be put to the sword if found. Is it wrong for the mother to smother her crying baby to save the group?

    What are her intentions? Which spirit gives her the necessary obligation to smother her child---love for one or love for many? Plus...this same argument can be used to justify slaughtering reprobate nations early in the O.T. Better to kill off a band of cancerous people who will pollute the purity of the chosen ones than to love everybody and let the pagans into the sanctuary.

    Now before you all hang me for this outlandish opinion, look at the context and ask yourself these questions:

  • Did the Jews believe themselves more pure than the other nations? Was there evidence to support this claim?
  • When the Bible was written, was it actually God telling them to slay the newborns, or was it their interpretation of what God surely must mean? In other words...was God responsible for their chosen actions? Why or why not?
  • Even today--church "clubs" only allow certain types of members in to the congregation. They would argue that it is improper to smoke bud while worshiping God or that it is idolatrous for human passion to idolize another lover above and beyond worshiping God. etc..etc. My argument is that in both ancient and modern examples...it is the human interpretation of what God commands...not God Himself.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 19 by 1.61803, posted 01-28-2014 10:46 AM 1.61803 has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 23 by 1.61803, posted 01-28-2014 3:07 PM Phat has responded

      
  • 1.61803
    Member
    Posts: 2704
    From: Lone Star State USA
    Joined: 02-19-2004
    Member Rating: 3.6


    Message 23 of 80 (717529)
    01-28-2014 3:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
    01-28-2014 1:41 PM


    Re: The Greater Good
    Phat writes:

    What are her intentions?


    Her intentions are to kill her crying child to save many more lives.

    The point I suppose I was getting at is many religions demand certainty and a black or white answer. Life on the other hand is anything but that.

    We can try as we may to contort our sense of morality and conform to the religious flavor of our choosing.
    But at the end of the day we are all faced with the shades of gray that make up the pallet of our lives.

    "Nothing is true, everything is permitted."


    "You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 22 by Phat, posted 01-28-2014 1:41 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 24 by Phat, posted 01-28-2014 6:01 PM 1.61803 has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9581
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.8


    Message 24 of 80 (717544)
    01-28-2014 6:01 PM
    Reply to: Message 23 by 1.61803
    01-28-2014 3:07 PM


    Re: The Greater Good
    Her intentions are to kill her crying child to save many more lives.

    Is the default standard based on number of lives alone? Look at World Wars I, II, and even more recent wars...our side usually kills more of "them" than they do of "us". Is that defacto evil?

    The standard, I think, involves more than numbers...it involves character...if it be possible to rate such a trait.

    Anselm writes:

    God became man, and by his own death, as we believe and affirm, restored life to the world; when he might have done this, by means of some other being, angelic or human, or merely by his will. Not only the learned, but also many unlearned persons interest themselves in this inquiry and seek for its solution.

    Surely Gods son had greater character value than any one (or even many) of us. In fact it could be argued that His lone death had greater sacrificial value than all of ours on the planet put together.

    Wags will often argue that death...for God...was "no big deal nor sacrifice"...but the issue isnt His death having value so much as the issue of sparing our lives having value.

    ringo writes:

    Who created the father of lies? (Who is the grandfather of lies?)

    According to Anselm, all power follows the will. Satan was the originator of willful lies...not God. God only made it a possibility. Satan (or the snake, at any rate) made it an actuality.

    Anselm writes:

    All power follows the will. For, when I say that I can speak or walk, it is understood, if I choose. For, if the will be not implied as acting, there is no power, but only necessity. For, when I say that I can be dragged or bound unwillingly, this is not my power, but necessity and the power of another; since I am able to be dragged or bound in no other sense than this, that another can drag or bind me. So we can say of Christ, that he could lie, so long as we understand, if he chose to do so. And, since he could not lie unwillingly and could not wish to lie, none the less can it be said that he could not lie. So in this way it is both true that he could and could not lie.

    add by edit: (since we will go this way anyway )

    jar,countless times writes:

    But in the story it is the serpent who tells the truth and the God character that lies.

    And jars assumption is based on this:
    jar writes:

    Do they die the very day they eat from the tree? Do they become more like God and get their eyes opened?

    I would argue that humanity has effectively died a spiritual death ever since we learned to think for ourselves. We may have thought that we are more like God the more technologically advanced we get, but it could be argued that we are nowhere near that class...

    which leads to the question: Is the greater good in and of the same classification of the greatest good?

    If the lady refused to smother her baby since in her mind that baby may someday be a great man would she have justifiable cause of risking a dozen lives?

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 23 by 1.61803, posted 01-28-2014 3:07 PM 1.61803 has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 25 by 1.61803, posted 01-29-2014 11:47 AM Phat has responded

      
    1.61803
    Member
    Posts: 2704
    From: Lone Star State USA
    Joined: 02-19-2004
    Member Rating: 3.6


    Message 25 of 80 (717588)
    01-29-2014 11:47 AM
    Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
    01-28-2014 6:01 PM


    Re: The Greater Good
    Phat writes:

    Is that defacto evil?

    If evil ever existed it most certainly does so in war itself.

    Phat writes:

    Surely Gods son had greater character value than any one (or even many) of us.

    Fully God and yet fully human.
    quote:

    And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.Matt 25:40

    Phat, is it the nobility of character or the defamed and wretched who personify the mercy of Christ. Was that not whole point of God becomming fully human. Mary feeding him mashed bits of food. God stuffing his little face. God learning to walk, to experiance being human?

    Phat writes:

    According to Anselm, all power follows the will. Satan was the originator of willful lies...not God. God only made it a possibility. Satan (or the snake, at any rate) made it an actuality.


    quote:
    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.Isaiah 45:7

    Edited by 1.61803, : No reason given.


    "You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 24 by Phat, posted 01-28-2014 6:01 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 26 by Phat, posted 01-29-2014 12:02 PM 1.61803 has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9581
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.8


    Message 26 of 80 (717591)
    01-29-2014 12:02 PM
    Reply to: Message 25 by 1.61803
    01-29-2014 11:47 AM


    Re: The Greater Good
    God created evil merely by creating free will

    Lucifer was exposed (as we all are now) only to the possibility of evil. God did not directly make him choose to rebel, any more than God being guilty of murder by virtue of any one of us doing it.

    Unless one were to argue that God forced us to be evil by making it so that we could never be equal to Him.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 25 by 1.61803, posted 01-29-2014 11:47 AM 1.61803 has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 27 by 1.61803, posted 01-29-2014 12:20 PM Phat has responded

      
    1.61803
    Member
    Posts: 2704
    From: Lone Star State USA
    Joined: 02-19-2004
    Member Rating: 3.6


    (1)
    Message 27 of 80 (717594)
    01-29-2014 12:20 PM
    Reply to: Message 26 by Phat
    01-29-2014 12:02 PM


    Re: The Greater Good
    Phat writes:

    God created evil merely by creating free will


    Can freewill exist without evil? Or is one choice over another simply a preference?

    Phat writes:

    Lucifer was exposed (as we all are now) only to the possibility of evil. God did not directly make him choose to rebel, any more than God being guilty of murder by virtue of any one of us doing it.


    Lucifer was a angel, a immortal being of pure intellect.
    God created Lucifer, knowing he would betray him and be cast out of heaven.
    Lucifer was no more responsible for his creation than us.
    Where is our free will in terms of our own creation?

    And as far as God not choosing Lucifer to rebel or us to kill,
    Maybe....
    for something to happen something must exist.
    for there to be death, there must be life.
    for there to be Good, ....well you know the rest.


    "You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 26 by Phat, posted 01-29-2014 12:02 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 28 by Phat, posted 01-29-2014 12:31 PM 1.61803 has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9581
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.8


    Message 28 of 80 (717595)
    01-29-2014 12:31 PM
    Reply to: Message 27 by 1.61803
    01-29-2014 12:20 PM


    Re: The Greater Good
    Where is our free will in terms of our own creation?
    Well...where is our free will in regards to flying? (apart from our ability to build planes) The popular logic among many non believers is that they would choose free will over obedience any day of the week....they cherish the right to decide over choosing God. Believers, on the other hand, claim that either we believe....and submit...or we die. Perhaps our prayer (just in case) should be to ask God for wisdom and insight on what the actual spiritual reality is.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 27 by 1.61803, posted 01-29-2014 12:20 PM 1.61803 has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 31 by AZPaul3, posted 01-30-2014 7:02 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Raphael
    Member
    Posts: 133
    Joined: 09-29-2007


    Message 29 of 80 (717598)
    01-29-2014 12:55 PM


    My friend Phat enjoys being the ultimate devil's advocate, or in this case the ultimate Lucifer's advocate , providing questions that stir the mind but never quite providing answers. That's something I like about him.

    1.61803 writes:


    Lucifer was a angel, a immortal being of pure intellect.
    God created Lucifer, knowing he would betray him and be cast out of heaven.
    Lucifer was no more responsible for his creation than us.
    Where is our free will in terms of our own creation?
    And as far as God not choosing Lucifer to rebel or us to kill,
    Maybe....
    for something to happen something must exist.
    for there to be death, there must be life.
    for there to be Good, ....well you know the rest.

    I agree with your words, friend, but before attributing things to God the text does not say, remember that the bible calls sin the "mystery of iniquity"(2 Thess 2). Sin does indeed exist, but it is quite a mystery.

    Regards!

    - Raph


    Replies to this message:
     Message 30 by 1.61803, posted 01-29-2014 3:49 PM Raphael has responded

      
    1.61803
    Member
    Posts: 2704
    From: Lone Star State USA
    Joined: 02-19-2004
    Member Rating: 3.6


    Message 30 of 80 (717611)
    01-29-2014 3:49 PM
    Reply to: Message 29 by Raphael
    01-29-2014 12:55 PM


    Raphael writes:

    Sin does indeed exist, but it is quite a mystery.


    Hello Raphael, another angel eh?

    Sin is a necessary as the betrayal of Christ was.

    The mystery of faith, we can seek the answers in scripture but we are human and deeply flawed to perfection.

    Peace


    "You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 29 by Raphael, posted 01-29-2014 12:55 PM Raphael has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 36 by Raphael, posted 01-31-2014 2:38 AM 1.61803 has acknowledged this reply

      
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