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Author Topic:   Anselm's Doctrine of Substitution
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


Message 31 of 80 (717670)
01-30-2014 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
01-29-2014 12:31 PM


Re: The Greater Good
Perhaps our prayer (just in case) should be to ask God for wisdom and insight on what the actual spiritual reality is.

That has been happening for thousands of years, Phat. The result has been thousands of different, competing, often conflicting, "spiritual realities" each one claiming to be The AnswerTM as revealed by besought prayer.

How can there be any The AnswerTM when there appears to be no single god to give a consistent The AnswerTM? This leaves The AnswerTM as a product of the emotional comfort of an individual's faith not as a product of any spiritual reality.

And the very act of prayer to some chosen deity, Phat, already presupposes the kind of The AnswerTM the individual is expecting to receive.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 01-29-2014 12:31 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13326
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 32 of 80 (717685)
01-30-2014 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
01-28-2014 1:32 PM


Re: God need never lie.
Phat writes:

All that was allowed was the possibility of evil...a possibility that was then actualized by Lucifer.


So when I fire my shotgun out the window, I'm just allowing the possibility of evil? It takes somebody walking into the shotgun blast to actualize the evil?

Phat writes:

Of course you have a point if you say that the snake was simply using a political ad to sway the newly created humans to follow his platform.


I wouldn't say that. I don't see where the snake had any "platform". He was telling the truth. He just didn't mention the consequences, so it was a half-truth. On the other hand, God told an untruth.

Phat writes:

Humans keep trying to bring God to their level of reasoning and guessing how God feels and what God would do.


That's why apologetics are ultimately circular. It always comes down to, "If it doesn't make any sense, it's because God doesn't think the same way we do. Some things can not be explained."

Then why do you try to explain them?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 01-28-2014 1:32 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 01-30-2014 11:35 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9500
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 33 of 80 (717687)
01-30-2014 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by ringo
01-30-2014 11:01 AM


Re: God need never lie.
ringo writes:

I wouldn't say that. I don't see where the snake had any "platform". He was telling the truth. He just didn't mention the consequences, so it was a half-truth. On the other hand, God told an untruth.

Don't you see the absurdity of this, though? God---by definition---would never need to lie. Having the snake portrayed as the good guy sounds precisely like something a conman would try and sell. And lets think a minute. How do we know that God lied? How do we know that humanity was not supposed to live forever...just as Jesus does? How do we know that we didnt collectively inherit death that day(even if the story is symbolic?)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 01-30-2014 11:01 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 01-30-2014 11:44 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13326
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 34 of 80 (717691)
01-30-2014 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
01-30-2014 11:35 AM


Re: God need never lie.
Phat writes:

God---by definition---would never need to lie.


That's your absurd definition.

God did lie, whether He had to or not.

Phat writes:

How do we know that God lied?


He said they would die "the same day". They didn't. It's possible that He changed His mind and didn't carry through on His threat but that's the only way you can get around it being a lie.

Phat writes:

How do we know that humanity was not supposed to live forever...just as Jesus does?


There you go running in circles again. If it doesn't make sense, "we don't know".
This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 01-30-2014 11:35 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 01-30-2014 6:12 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9500
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 35 of 80 (717722)
01-30-2014 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by ringo
01-30-2014 11:44 AM


Re: God need never lie.
Anselm begged to differ.
quote:
Anselm.. Moreover, it is easily proved that man was so made as not to be necessarily subject to death; for, as we have already said, it is inconsistent with God's wisdom and justice to compel man to suffer death without fault, when he made him holy to enjoy eternal blessedness. It therefore follows that had man never sinned he never would have died.
You people seem to believe that mans divine right was autonomy...in fact you would deny God were He to deny you autonomy. My counterpoint is that autonomy, by definition is evil.

We were never designed to be gods.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 01-30-2014 11:44 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by ringo, posted 01-31-2014 10:42 AM Phat has responded

  
Raphael
Member
Posts: 133
Joined: 09-29-2007


Message 36 of 80 (717735)
01-31-2014 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by 1.61803
01-29-2014 3:49 PM


.61803 writes:

Hello Raphael, another angel eh?
Sin is a necessary as the betrayal of Christ was.

The mystery of faith, we can seek the answers in scripture but we are human and deeply flawed to perfection.

Yessir! Well, to be honest I just liked the name.

I totally agree with you. Very well said. I suppose I was cautioning about thinking we have all the answers. But you appear to be an individual of caution and humility, so my warnings were unrequited.

Regards!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by 1.61803, posted 01-29-2014 3:49 PM 1.61803 has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13326
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 37 of 80 (717753)
01-31-2014 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Phat
01-30-2014 6:12 PM


Re: God need never lie.
Phat writes:

My counterpoint is that autonomy, by definition is evil.


What's the difference between autonomy and free will?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 01-30-2014 6:12 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 01-31-2014 3:40 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9500
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 38 of 80 (717769)
01-31-2014 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by ringo
01-31-2014 10:42 AM


There is no exclusionary option
Since we are talking faith/belief I will give you my belief.

What's the difference between autonomy and free will?

In a spiritual context-- You don't get to decide that you don't need/want a Creator without some consequence.

The consequence is not that you simply end up in Hell...the consequence is that you will inadvertently support one side or the other. There is no way to sit this one out.

the online dictionary defines autonomy as "the state of existing or acting separately from others."

It defines free will as : the ability to choose how to act

or the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God. My argument would be that even if your choices are not controlled by God, they will be judged by God. Lucifer chose autonomy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by ringo, posted 01-31-2014 10:42 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by ringo, posted 02-01-2014 10:46 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13326
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 39 of 80 (717788)
02-01-2014 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
01-31-2014 3:40 PM


Re: There is no exclusionary option
Phat writes:

My argument would be that even if your choices are not controlled by God, they will be judged by God.


Full circle again. If we are judged by God for making the 'wrong' choice, how do we have free will? A choice between ice cream and a punch in the face is not a real choice.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 01-31-2014 3:40 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 02-01-2014 3:27 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9500
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 40 of 80 (717802)
02-01-2014 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by ringo
02-01-2014 10:46 AM


Re: There is no exclusionary option
One argument is that Lucifer basically pleaded the same case before God that you do. (not to suggest... )

Why must I listen to you?

Can't I be an independent spirit apart from your flow?

Why must I be you? Can't I be like you?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by ringo, posted 02-01-2014 10:46 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by ringo, posted 02-02-2014 1:12 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13326
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 41 of 80 (717871)
02-02-2014 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Phat
02-01-2014 3:27 PM


Re: There is no exclusionary option
Phat writes:

Why must I listen to you?

Can't I be an independent spirit apart from your flow?

Why must I be you? Can't I be like you?


So why don't you play Lucifer's advocate and answer those questions? Pretend, just for a moment, that the apologetics you've been spoon-fed are not the be-all and end-all of knowledge. Pretend, just for a moment, that God isn't the idiot portrayed by the apologists.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 02-01-2014 3:27 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 02-02-2014 4:14 PM ringo has responded
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 10-17-2016 7:52 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9500
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 42 of 80 (717884)
02-02-2014 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by ringo
02-02-2014 1:12 PM


Lucifers Defense Attorney
ringo writes:

So why don't you play Lucifer's advocate and answer those questions? Pretend, just for a moment, that the apologetics you've been spoon-fed are not the be-all and end-all of knowledge. Pretend, just for a moment, that God isn't the idiot portrayed by the apologists.


OK...This may take some practice, though.

GOD: State your case, angel.

ME OK. Listen, I've enjoyed working here. You taught me a lot. Its just that I want to be loved and worshiped for a change. Why is it that you get all the glory? Its not as if you need it--you have everything you could possibly want! If you truly are fair and unbiased, is it too much to ask that I have my own franchise with my name on it and that people that dont want to listen to a higher authority---like me---be allowed to be their own authority? We want autonomy, Boss. Is that too much to ask?

GOD Done. With ONE proviso. I have the copyright on love for GOD as well as the name and concept of original Creator.

ME OK, that was my one gripe, anyway. I wanted to do things my way. I don't seek to be a bad guy. I just want the right to not listen to all the stuff you have spoon-fed me and that my family mindlessly believes. I wanna try things on my own.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by ringo, posted 02-02-2014 1:12 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 02-03-2014 8:53 AM Phat has responded
 Message 44 by ringo, posted 02-03-2014 10:45 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29144
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 43 of 80 (717939)
02-03-2014 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
02-02-2014 4:14 PM


Re: Lucifers Defense Attorney
And once again Phat, where is your support for Lucifer's desire for autonomy, or that Lucifer wanted to be worshiped or that Lucifer wanted to not listen to a higher authority?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 02-02-2014 4:14 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 02-03-2014 12:26 PM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13326
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 44 of 80 (717951)
02-03-2014 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
02-02-2014 4:14 PM


Re: Lucifers Defense Attorney
Phat writes:

I have the copyright on love for GOD as well as the name and concept of original Creator.


See what I mean about making God look like an idiot? Why would He be so petty?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 02-02-2014 4:14 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 02-03-2014 12:21 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9500
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 45 of 80 (717968)
02-03-2014 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by ringo
02-03-2014 10:45 AM


Re: Lucifers Defense Attorney
Lets see what Anselm thought:

quote:
Anselm.. If man or angel always rendered to God his due, he would never sin.

Boso . I cannot deny that.

Anselm.. Therefore to sin is nothing else than not to render to God his due.

Boso. What is the debt which we owe to God?

Anselm.. Every wish of a rational creature should be subject to the will of God.

Boso. Nothing is more true.


I can see where Anselm promoted the doctrine of original sin, and of Christs substitution for our deserved death...but it appears that Anselm also emphasized that Christ--as human---did this as an act of his own will.

Anselm writes:

when any creature wishes to do a thing that is left entirely at his own disposal, we say that he ought to do it, for what he wishes to be ought to be. So our Lord Jesus, when he wished, as we have said, to suffer death, ought to have done precisely what he did; because he ought to be what he wished, and was not bound to do anything as a debt. As he is both God and man, in connection with his human nature, which made him a man, he must also have received from the Divine nature that control over himself which freed him from all obligation, except to do as he chose.

ringo writes:

See what I mean about making God look like an idiot? Why would He be so petty?

Are you suggesting that God leaves the idea of worship and obligation entirely at our choice and will? That even if we chose to become atheists and chose to look to no other higher source than ourselves that He would honor it? This is getting scary...and interesting.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by ringo, posted 02-03-2014 10:45 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by ringo, posted 02-04-2014 10:44 AM Phat has responded

  
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